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Old 03-10-2016, 07:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Just an interesting study for H2 production.

Quite heavy on the technical stuff.

Making the hydrogen evolution reaction in polymer electrolyte membrane electrolysers even faster : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

As I've pointed out in other thread discussions, the continued research into catalyst production and performance is moving in leaps and bounds.

This paper simply shows a path to produce a platinum/copper catalyst with twice the activity of plain platinum for the evolution of hydrogen in the electrolysis process.

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Old 03-10-2016, 07:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
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And why exactly do we want to use hydrogen as a ground vehicle propulsion fuel?
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have argued this point with you in other threads.

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
And why exactly do we want to use hydrogen as a ground vehicle propulsion fuel?
This forum is full of "experts" who stray from their base of knowledge.

Hydrogen production is simply a pathway. It is an energy carrier. It can store that energy indefinitely and allow transport to other locations with ease.

This paper simply shows the use of modeling and nano/molecular engineering and imaging, to improve tremendously the ability to split water with less energy waste.
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Anything that improves the efficiency of hydrogen production is welcome, as the current methods are prohibitively wasteful.
Even so, there is no magic; there will never be a method that needs less energy to produce hydrogen than the same amount of hydrogen can provide by getting burned (I have hopes for nuclear fusion, but not for directly powering cars).

As a carrier of energy hydrogen is troublesome. Its containers outweigh their contents many times and need to be treated as highly explosive devices, which they are after all.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Hydrogen does not need to be stored as a pure gas.

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As a carrier of energy hydrogen is troublesome. Its containers outweigh their contents many times and need to be treated as highly explosive devices, which they are after all.
I have mentioned metal hydride storage schemes, complex hydrated polymers and hydro-carbon liquids with carbon from the biosphere.

None are widespread in use, but all are viable storage schemes.

One idea is to extend the work of a company called Hythane. Basically they are mixing 10% hydrogen gas by volume with methane (though a much higher percentage of hydrogen could be used). The affinity of hydrogen to the carbon atom through the weak molecular bond keeps the hydrogen from migrating into the metal containers. The methane could be composed of producer hydrogen with the carbon from biosphere sources. The mixture is easily transported, as now, in the natural gas pipelines we have in existence. The energy can be used in both natural gas vehicles and stationary uses.

Last edited by RustyLugNut; 03-11-2016 at 02:23 AM.. Reason: spelling and content.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Some 16 years ago I used to think Hydrogen would become viable in 20 or 30 years, but now I'm not so optimistic about it.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The same could be said for electric cars.

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Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Some 16 years ago I used to think Hydrogen would become viable in 20 or 30 years, but now I'm not so optimistic about it.
But, it is not that electric drive is a non-starter, it is just that it needed an improvement in battery capabilities to make them viable. Now, they should become the front runner for moving people and goods short distances. With improvements in rapid charging, longer ranges become plausible. The underlying problem is still battery cost.

Hydrogen is not really competing against electricity, it is competing against batteries. It is not as efficient to produce green hydrogen as simply using electricity in a battery. However, hydrogen has some advantages that batteries cannot compete with. Energy density and storage are the biggest ones. Thus, I have preached capture of stranded energy. This is energy that is thrown away or lost because it is not useful locally and is too distant to bring to market.

Hydrogen can use electrical energy as well as heat energy in its production. It can be stored and, if bonded to a carbon atom, it can be a dense energy source with indefinitely long storage life.

The public view of the hydrogen industry as well as the industry itself has been narrow. Recently, a much more open look at what hydrogen has to offer is allowing companies to compete in certain markets that batteries simply cannot fill. The drastic reduction in fossil fuel prices puts a damper on things, but we all know it cannot last forever, whether in our lifetimes or that of our children.

Last edited by RustyLugNut; 03-11-2016 at 02:24 AM.. Reason: Typo.
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Old 03-11-2016, 12:13 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Hydrogen is by far the plentiful element in the universe, but it is not that plentiful on Earth. Probably a good thing because it seems really hot where the big stores of hydrogen lie. The best methods for Hydrogen production on Earth to me look like in new specially designed nuclear power plants, with electrolysis in the steam cycle. Not only do you get clean electricity to power the grid, you can get efficient hydrogen production for powering the mobile things, Cars, trains, and trucks cleanly. Hydrogen being generated inside a nuclear reactor, what could possibly go wrong?
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:04 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
Hydrogen can use electrical energy as well as heat energy in its production. It can be stored and, if bonded to a carbon atom, it can be a dense energy source with indefinitely long storage life.
Basically that's what happens with CNG, 4 atoms of Hydrogen bonded to a carbon atom, and it can be sourced from renewable feedstocks too, eventually integrated with ethanol and biodiesel production. When I was more optimistic about Hydrogen, and mostly influenced by the marketing around BMW experiences with Hydrogen in internal-combustion engines, I used to see it as an easy replacement for the CNG imported from Bolivia. Anyway, I didn't see Hydrogen exactly as a competitor to EVs, mostly due to the cost and weight of the greater amount of batteries they have in comparison to a Hydrogen-powered FCEV.
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Old 03-12-2016, 03:04 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
I have mentioned metal hydride storage schemes, complex hydrated polymers and hydro-carbon liquids with carbon from the biosphere.

None are widespread in use, but all are viable storage schemes.

One idea is to extend the work of a company called Hythane. Basically they are mixing 10% hydrogen gas by volume with methane (though a much higher percentage of hydrogen could be used). The affinity of hydrogen to the carbon atom through the weak molecular bond keeps the hydrogen from migrating into the metal containers. The methane could be composed of producer hydrogen with the carbon from biosphere sources. The mixture is easily transported, as now, in the natural gas pipelines we have in existence. The energy can be used in both natural gas vehicles and stationary uses.
Yes, so what?
My argument that the container outweighs the gas still stands, whether it is hypercompressed, hypercooled, bound with palladium or methane.

Natural gas pipelines are in use to transport natural gas. In Holland almost all houses are connected to the natural gas network.
The pipelines, shutters, controllers etc are designed to work with the gas composition from our giant well in Slochteren. Nowadays gas from other sources gets used too, which meant we needed vast adaptations to our network to keep it safe. Just closing a valve on a main transport line causes a violent bang as the flow of a vast amount of gas is suddenly stopped. So the shutters have a shock absorber to cushion the blow. A different composure of the gas means those need to be redesigned. And so do the sniffers that test for leakage, pumps, etc.

Our gas network could not be used for transporting hydrogen, not even if it were not in use for natural gas anymore, but definitely not within a few years.

If hydrogen becomes economically viable, then the infrastructure for it will be built up, either piece by piece or by a vast investment scheme. In fact it would be hard to stop it from happening. Until then, it won't. Nobody wants to lose money until it is certain the investment will pay back.
Hydrogen needs to be cheap or it won't be a thing.

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