Middle America Worker's Story

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Its not just an oil problem.

In 2010 the us imported $337bn of oil (according to Mr Pickens).

At least some of that was used to generate economic activity which offsets this cost. Not all by any means and the efficiency of its use could (should) be improved - thats why we are here after all

At the same time though the US sent $273bn more to China to pay for stuff than income from stuff sold by the US there.

I know we are segueing into other things, but AG brings up a very valid point when it comes to our trade policies with China and the world in general. You'd think with the high unemployment and severe trade deficits we would throw the walls up and do what we have to do to keep our dollars circulating in the US. But that doesn't seem to be the case. The US Chamber of Commerce actually ENCOURAGES as much outsourcing as possible, which is economic treason to me. I don't have a problem with doing business with other countries, but when it's at the expense of my own, erm, no.

Just getting things to where the trade policies are FAIR not FREE will also contribute to the treasury here in the US.

Funny that a few people on a forum about making vehicles run better can figure out economic and trade policy better than the folks who should be doing it in our respective governments.

[Frank Lee]

That's cuz all they care about are executive compensation packages and short term stock prices.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1

...You'd think with the high unemployment and severe trade deficits we would throw the walls up and do what we have to do to keep our dollars circulating in the US...

Thats what happened in the 1930s, it just made the situation worse.

China is not just acting as a factory for US corporations, it is innovating itself. As an example they are scheduled to match and exceed the number of patents generated annually by the US, if they haven't already.

They have huge potential inflation problems because they have so much cash and nothing to buy, problems which are being "managed" by the government there - it seems Centrally Planned economies can't plan how much to produce of anything successfully but they certainly know how to handle any "surplus".

How do you think they afford all those bullet trains, 30 mile long bridges, a massive military, an expanding space programme and all the VWs and Buicks they can get their hands on ?

This does lend itself to an interesting possibility - that a lot of production type work may actually move back to the West again because it may be cheaper here. Some innovation and development jobs as well as services already are.

It would take a long time though.

[cleanspeed1]

Haven't you guys in the UK been experiencing the same thing as the US?

What are the differences that you see?

[Arragonis]

Which part specifically, the economics or what workers experience ?

[cleanspeed1]

I'd like to know about both sides, economics and worker experience.

[Arragonis]

Our geography and size means that this "typical worker story" is probably not so applicable, but lots of people are having to take lower paid jobs. The rest is a big story but the highlights :

Negatives

- Most people have had no increase in pay (in numerical terms) for 2-3 years.

- At the same time inflation is 4.2% (or over 5% depending on which measure is used).

- VAT (sales tax) went up to 20% at the start of the year, from 17.5%.

- Domestic energy costs are more of a worry than petrol/diesel - risen 54% in 3-4 years.

- Unemployment is steadying and even falling in some areas, but jobs for people just leaving school or college are hard to get. We are in danger of a generation not getting into steady employment like we had in the 80s.

- Petrol prices have eased slightly to just under $8 a gallon, but we have an average of around 35-40 MPG (imperial) for most passenger cars.

- Public transport is running at capacity in a lot of places, and is very expensive. So transport policy is all stick and no carrot.

- We still manufacture a lot here but not as much as we did - we get our Christmas on a big boat from China like you do

- We even buy things we invented (e.g. trains) from abroad - places like Germany.

Positives :

- Interest rates are low, 0.5 - have been there since 2009

- We won't default.

- We aren't in the Euro

The real problem is the hidden cost - the young people mentioned above for example, or the fact that we have a large portion of our population which is more or less uneducated - like the US has. In the past these people found employment in basic manufacturing, which is no longer there, or the unskilled sector. In the latter case though those jobs have been taken by recent immigrants and temporary visitors from the rest of Europe (I have nothing against these people, they are in a lot of cases more hard working than the average uneducated Brit). Previous governments allowed these people to go onto sick benefits from where they never get back into work and us tax payers end up funding them forever - it got them off the unemployment figures though.

Oh and the current government only seems to have a policy for cutting spending (which they haven't done despite what they say) and nothing to actually get industry and jobs moving.

We are still a "smart" country - think of us as a slightly scruffy version of Japan with less good teeth - and these smarts is what we will have to use to earn our living in the future.

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Our geography and size means that this "typical worker story" is probably not so applicable, but lots of people are having to take lower paid jobs. The rest is a big story but the highlights :

Negatives

- Most people have had no increase in pay (in numerical terms) for 2-3 years.

- At the same time inflation is 4.2% (or over 5% depending on which measure is used).

- VAT (sales tax) went up to 20% at the start of the year, from 17.5%.

- Domestic energy costs are more of a worry than petrol/diesel - risen 54% in 3-4 years.

- Unemployment is steadying and even falling in some areas, but jobs for people just leaving school or college are hard to get. We are in danger of a generation not getting into steady employment like we had in the 80s.

- Petrol prices have eased slightly to just under $8 a gallon, but we have an average of around 35-40 MPG (imperial) for most passenger cars.

- Public transport is running at capacity in a lot of places, and is very expensive. So transport policy is all stick and no carrot.

- We still manufacture a lot here but not as much as we did - we get our Christmas on a big boat from China like you do

- We even buy things we invented (e.g. trains) from abroad - places like Germany.

Positives :

- Interest rates are low, 0.5 - have been there since 2009

- We won't default.

- We aren't in the Euro

The real problem is the hidden cost - the young people mentioned above for example, or the fact that we have a large portion of our population which is more or less uneducated - like the US has. In the past these people found employment in basic manufacturing, which is no longer there, or the unskilled sector. In the latter case though those jobs have been taken by recent immigrants and temporary visitors from the rest of Europe (I have nothing against these people, they are in a lot of cases more hard working than the average uneducated Brit). Previous governments allowed these people to go onto sick benefits from where they never get back into work and us tax payers end up funding them forever - it got them off the unemployment figures though.

We are still a "smart" country - think of us as a slightly scruffy version of Japan with less good teeth - and these smarts is what we will have to use to earn our living in the future.

Sounds a lot like what the "nutters" over here are doing ( your man Cable is a blast to listen to ). I can't understand why they are hellbent on cutting without increasing revenue, and the best way to do it is get people working and paying them well. This is not rocket science.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1

Sounds a lot like what the "nutters" over here are doing ( your man Cable is a blast to listen to ). I can't understand why they are hellbent on cutting without increasing revenue, and the best way to do it is get people working and paying them well. This is not rocket science.

Old "Soothsayer Vince" has been dining off the "I told you the world was going to end" and "I have a brain the size of a planet" myths for quite a while - I'm not sure he should be in the government TBH, he is too much the free thinking political theorist for actual responsibility. Also I didn't think his "right wing nutters" statement was not in good taste coming just a day or so after Oslo.

[cleanspeed1]

AG, you know that he has a penchant for being verbose. But given the circumstances, he should have had his aides check his mouth at the door.

Or maybe a 7 second delay would have helped.