Middle America Worker's Story

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Thymeclock

Yep, "people who are supposed to know". That's a good description of the so-called economic and political experts.

In truth I was thinking more of petroleum geologists and such, and things like the Hubbert Curve. But let that go, and just note that any prognosticator should be judged by the success of his/her predictions. So for years, your "so-called economic and political experts" have been predicting higher gas prices, and guess what? We have seen higher gas prices. That'd seem to indicate that they might know what they're talking about.

Then too, there's the old pessimistic bet. Things can get better, or they can get worse. If you figure they're always going to get better, your life will be filled with disappointments, which may become disasters because you were unprepared to deal with them. If you bet on them getting worse, you sometimes get pleasant surprises, and worst case are prepared to handle what life throws at you.

So if you intelligently prepare for higher gas prices by buying a higher mpg car, what do you lose? If gas prices stay low, you lose nothing while saving a bit on gas, and probably car payments, insurance, etc.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

That's silly: I wasn't aware that China recognized IP.

I believe it was one of the conditions of them joining one of those world economic bodies, but I don't have the details to hand. Niall Ferguson's book "Civilisation - The West and The Rest" details the patent figures up to (I think) 2009 and China would pass the US soon afterwards based on the long running trend.

The main idea of pointing that out though was to make people aware that China is no longer just a cheap factory for all our stuff.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

...As an added bonus, there would actually be money to maintain our roads and bridges.

Of course it will be.

2/3 of the $8.50 a US gallon I pay for fuel is tax. And the roads in Beirut in the 1980s were better quality than the ones I drive on in Edinburgh today.

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

I believe it was one of the conditions of them joining one of those world economic bodies, but I don't have the details to hand. Niall Ferguson's book "Civilisation - The West and The Rest" details the patent figures up to (I think) 2009 and China would pass the US soon afterwards based on the long running trend.

The main idea of pointing that out though was to make people aware that China is no longer just a cheap factory for all our stuff.

But you do have the details at hand. Or rather, parked outside:

Originally Posted by Arragonis

I could have saved some money on George it seems.

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Maybe - these are not available, yet, from China - its only a matter of time.

If I was Mr Smart or Mr Toyota, I would be annoyed.

Mr. Smart and Mr. Toyota aren't going to get anywhere in a Chinese court, and for the same reason that those Chinese cars aren't going to get exported anywhere that has an actual government. China doesn't recognize IP, no matter what international agreements you can find on the web. The number of patents they issue is limited only by the speed they can translate foreign patents into Chinese.

[Arragonis]

Sorry "Stout Chuck" - I think your point is well made about IP, but I respectfully disagree on these examples.

The Aygo and Smart are not new or innovative and none have a patent on them, just copyright. The copies are absolutely blatant I agree - which is why I posted that thread.

As for cars, its been done before, outside China, by American owned companies. Worked example - meet Mr Peugeot's excellent 205 hatchback circa mid 1980s



And then Mr Ford's slightly less good (in fact really cr@p) Fiesta circa early 1990s.



Similar I'm sure you will agree ? So did Mr Ford infringe on the IP of Mr Peugeot ? Well at the time Mr Peugeot didn't think so otherwise they would have been in court asap.

Its a similar story with other products - Sony didn't try and stop all those other personal stereos in the early 80s just because they invented the Walkman - they protected their own design. Toyota and Smart could (and should) in this case but I don't think either sell in China so they don't try.

The patents I am tapping about are real research, science, now stuff, things being thought of as innovative.

Patents though are tricky. In the US you can patent a concept, which is (or maybe was) not possible in the EU but US courts assumed it was enforceable beyond US borders. In India for example you can patent a product but not a process - so they make copies of drugs by altering the process slightly. All of these will come into line at some point.

I think China will be in a position to argue that their standards will become the world's standards mainly as they have most of the cash, and the military to back it up if anyone (i.e. you guys in the US) decide to disagree.

When I think of the US (or indeed the west as whole) attempting to dominate China, I can't help thinking of Ken Mcleod's quote about Europe :

Hey, this is Europe. We took it from nobody; we won it from the bare soil that the ice left. The bones of our ancestors, and the stones of their works, are everywhere. Our liberties were won in wars and revolutions so terrible that we do not fear our governors: they fear us. Our children giggle and eat ice-cream in the palaces of past rulers. We snap our fingers at kings. We laugh at popes. When we have built up tyrants, we have brought them down. And we have nuclear *fu***ng* weapons.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

When I think of the US (or indeed the west as whole) attempting to dominate China, I can't help thinking of Ken Mcleod's quote about Europe :

Might want to discuss that with the Celts. Or the Picts. Or the Etruscans. Or a lot of other people (or their ghosts) going back to the Neandertals.

[Fat Charlie]

Whoah, there! Europeans are mutts. They have distinctive geographically defined identities but they are only one level removed from us mongrels over here on the other side of the pond. How many waves of invading tribes from the east eventually made up today's Europe? Nobody who has a current cultural identity can claim to be the original inhabitants of anywhere, unless they're in one of those uncontacted tribes that still exist- and I would sincerely doubt that anyone on an internet forum about cars is a member of an uncontacted tribe.

Mr. A, I need to apologize too- it was too juicy to pass up and I was actually confused (that happens with me). I think I disagree with you in two places- that entering a new market (say, portable music playback devices) infringes on someone's IP (can you copyright/patent a new market?) and that patents and copyright are inherently different (as an aside, I believe that the US allowing patents on business methods is revolting and can't defend that. The Justice Departments views on extraterritorial jurisdiction are even more revolting and I can't defend them either.).

I could mount shoulder straps on a Victrola and have a portable music playback device. Sony was wise to not fight the BackPackTrola that was introduced to compete with their Walkman. That's a far cry from China's issuing patents while ignoring copyrights. What's the difference between the two other than barrier to entry? It's largely the same as the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor; they are both criminal offences and go through the same police, prosecutors and courts but carry different relative weight. They are both government granted monopolies on IP but one level of preotection simply involves more paperwork and review to achieve. I would maintain that a government that ignores copyright does not merit recognition of its patents.

As to Messrs. Ford and Peugot, (barring actual industrial espionage) I would point out that a small car designed to one extreme of use will appear and function quite similarly to another small car designed to meet the same extremes of use. In related news, the current Insight looks like a copy of the old Prius. Did the good engineers at Honda simply buy a Prius and trace it or did they come up with a very similar shape to perform the exact same task?

[Arragonis]

@ James - The quote came from McLoed - I do not have the skill to come with things like that as fast as he did. I use it only to illustrate how "bolshy" the Chinese could be if you wish to restrict their "freedom" to dominate the world. Many in the US assume that all those very expensive aircraft carriers and "projecting power" projects are invincible - the Chinese KNOW they aren't.

As for us Europeans - remember we do call it the old world.

Mr Chuck : I take your point, I wasn't trying to be "in yer face" if you know what I mean, so peace, truce etc. I take your point again about the Walkman. The Ford / Peugeot comparison is a real one - many commented on how similar the cars were at the time. I know what you mean about form following purpose but if you google cars around at the time - FIAT Uno or Punto, Renault 5 or Clio and thats before we start on cars from Eastern Europe (Skoda, Yugo, Lada) or the far east (Hyundai, Kia and the japanese makers).

The top sellers at the time :

Fiat Punto


Renault Clio


Vauxhall / Opel Corsa


OT - The Corsa is GMs effort during the 1990s - note how similar it is to the US Metro etc. but its completely different underneath.