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Old 08-13-2013, 06:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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A More Efficient Engine (Need help from some Toyota Experts)

This is relatively long, read at your own risk!

I've got myself engrossed in another research project. I've been researching various sites, but can't seem to find all the answers I'm looking for. I need help from some Toyota experts (*cough, cough* Daox ).

On my 2001 Corolla, I have the 1ZZ-FE 1.8L engine, which most owners know is an oil drinker. My friend is a mechanic and is willing to help me fix the problem (clean it out, drill larger oil return holes and replace anything else, like rings and gaskets). My question doesn't relate to that, however.

Something caught my eye and I started researching different Toyota engines, looking for a more efficient engine family than the 1ZZ. I found multiple, but I don't know which will swap and which will be more efficient, as they offer different technologies. If I don't have to do a full engine swap and there are only internal parts I can add/swap to the 1ZZ, which would make it as good as another engine, then I would be open to those possibilities as well. I just figured, if I could research a better engine, the best time to swap would be when we are taking the time to take it all apart anyway.

One major caveat in deciding the "best" engine is that no matter what transmission it mates to, it has to be clutchless (auto, multi-mode, etc.). For this application, this just has to be.

I included the Wiki page for each engine family, the major source of the info I have found, you may however have to scroll down. OK, here are the options I have found:

The first I found is the 3ZZ and 4ZZ engines. There is nothing special about these engines (at least in terms of newer tech) except that they are smaller than the 1ZZ (3ZZ is 1.6L and 4ZZ is 1.4L), thus by default sipping less fuel. My worry, however, is whether or not they would be under powered, but international Corollas use these engines, so I don't think it would be an issue. I could also attach a turbo if I felt that it needed more power (mimicing what auto makers are doing right now). But will the 3ZZ and 4ZZ swap into a 1ZZ N.A. Corolla engine bay? 3ZZ & 4ZZ

The next "find" was the 1ZR-FAE. It seems to be a better version of the ZZ family (at least for my needs). I like this engine, because it is smaller (1.6L) and offers Valvematic technology which varies the intake and exhaust timing and the intake valve lift (between 1mm and 11mm). According to Wikipedia, Valvematic "improves fuel efficiency by controlling the fuel/air mixture using valve control rather than conventional throttle plate control." Does that mean that there is no throttle plate in this engine, or does it just work differently? It also has a slightly larger compression ratio (10.7:1 instead of 10:1). The Valvematic, smaller size and higher compression make this a much more efficient engine (speaking generically, all else equal). The issue with using this engine is that it is only mated to a manual or a MMT (multi-mode manual). If the MMT is clutchless (say, paddle shifters), then this tranny will work for me. There is of course the issue of swapability. The European Avensis originally had the 1ZZ, but in later gens, it switched to the ZR, so I wonder if it is still swappable? 1ZR-FAE

I also found the NR family of engines, which has the 'Stop and Start' technology and some other pretty sweet stuff (like advanced materials and softer, smoother intake, 1.3L, etc.). It is available on the Corolla (11th gen, Japanese), so I wonder if it is swappable? I'm not running a taxi service, but sometimes on "errands day", I feel like I do, meaning an engine that can stop and start would be quite useful. (I also will occasionally have to deal with rush hour type traffic.) It also has a larger compression ratio (11.5:1).1NR-FE

The 1JZ-FSE has direct injection, but is a relatively large 2.5L. It's also a 6 cylinder. I know direct injection improves fuel economy, but the much larger engine will probably nullify that, so this engine is all but out of contention (in my mind). It does, however, have an 11:1 CR and can run at 20-40:1 in certain load conditions (not sure when). 1JZ-FSE

The 4U-GSE also has direct injection, but is a smaller 2.0L engine. It is also 12.5:1 compression. I assume that high of a CR means it requires Premium fuel. I would prefer not to have that large of an engine, but I wonder if I can get away with it because of the other tech associated with it. The problem I see is that it is a flat-four engine, which generically speaking, is more efficient than a 'V' or transverse, but I doubt it will work with the Corolla. (It's what the Scion FR-S uses). It is also a RWD based system, which I assume makes it impossible. 4U-GSE

Those our the options I have found. Basically, long story short, my question is which of these engines will swap into an 8th gen Corolla and which would be the most efficient. I want a few different things, but can't seem to find an engine that offers it all. So which technology is going to make the engine most efficient: smaller engine, Valvematic, Direct Injection, Start & Stop, boxer, Atkinson, new-age materials...? I tried posting this on my Corolla forum, but they're all about power, power, power and I'm cool with , so I didn't exactly get the answers I want/need (I think this forum has more international members, which may be helpful).

I have a 4 gear tranny currently. If I could find an engine with a 5th or 6th gear, I would like to "upgrade". I found a lot of 5 and 6 gear FWD auto transmissions, but I don't know and can't find which fit with these engines (if at all). There is also an 8 gear tranny, but I don't know if it will fit any of these engines (it usually pairs to a large engine) and I'm not sure if I want that many gears anyway (I'd take it if I had to though ). Transmissions

In my dream world (at least for this project), I would find an engine that is 1.X liters, Valvematic, direct injection, Start & Stop, Atkinson, new-age materials and high compression (and maybe a boxer engine to boot), mated to the most efficient tranny available (regardless of gear count). I know that is not possible (yet), so starting from that point, I would like to figure out what would be the next best option(s). If I could maintain or increase HP and torque at the wheels, while using less fuel to do it, that is what I am looking for (like most of us ).

I know this is a tall order and there are a lot of variables, but I would like to get a basic idea on what could work and any help to further my research would be greatly appreciated. I'm not looking for opinions about what I should or shouldn't do, I just want to know if any of the listed options are possible. At this point, I'm not worried about what the cost would be, but I am certainly not looking for a custom engine for tens of thousands of dollars. Once I find out what will work, obviously I would worry about the financials at that point. I am merely looking for what my real-world options are, as this is a theoretical research topic.

I appreciate any help with answers! TIA

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think if you want to have minimal downtime and drive it again in this century, fix and/or mod what you have.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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ya that was a long post
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Old 08-14-2013, 02:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Short answer: Give up, you're screwed. I have your drivetrain (if you are driving stick) and I've looked into this.

Longer answer: The European/Japanese spec engines that you mentioned are impossible to obtain in the US unless you ship one over. The 1NR can only be found in automatic here in the latest Scion iQ, and the electronics are probably going to complain if you try to bolt it to your old chassis without the host of electronics that the new car has.

The most efficient general purpose Toyota engine you'll find in the US is the 2ZR-FAE that is on the latest Corolla Eco model. The throttle plate is not used, so it incurs very little pumping loss, and it has a good compression ratio.

You can be a guinea pig for a 2ZR-FE transplant if you like. The new Corollas come with 6 speed manual transmissions but it'll cost a fortune to get one since they're brand new. Luckily the 2ZR-FE seems to have minor improvements over the 1ZZ-FE so you might find it worth the time. If the whole thing bolts in without too much modification then great.

The 1NZ-FE fits with some modification; Someone bolted it to a C60 using an adapter plate, and had to use a custom engine mount since the engine is shorter.

If you want to modify the 1ZZ I have some ideas for you; "Atkinson cycle" : you can pay Delta to regrind your intake cam for about 200 bucks for higher duration. 12:1 compression pistons are available and you can probably shave the head a tiny bit. You can get a piggyback air/fuel controller and wideband O2 and run leaner mixes for pumping loss reduction.

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks serialk11r! I appreciate the help.

I have a 4 speed auto (A245e, I think?). Not sure if that changes my options compared to your manual?

All of my research has shown these are mostly all import-necessary engines, so I assumed I would have to import one from the beginning.

I'm a little weary about the 2ZR-FAE, because it is the same size engine, so I'm not sure about the FE benefit (although, higher compression and Valvematic might be enough to make a difference). According to Wiki, it saves 5-10% fuel compared to the 2ZR-FE. Don't know how to compare that to the 1ZZ though, but it isreplacing the 1ZZ (maybe there would be a greater fuel saving, like 10-15%?). I would be happier with the 1ZR-FAE, because it is smaller, slightly higher compression and still has Valvematic, but I'm not sure if it would fit any easier/harder than the 2ZR. I imagine there would be some custom mounting necessary. I'm still wondering about the throttle plate, but I think I'll start a new thread about that.

I didn't realize the 1NR was already available here in the states in the iQ. I assumed with any of these engines that the electronics would be required (at the very least the ECU). Can the 1NR be bolted to the Corolla body or will I need some custom fab work?

I don't think I want to use the 1NZ, as the only benefit would be the smaller engine and I have the auto, so I don't know if there is an adapter plate for that.

If an engine is designed for RWD, does that pretty much automatically disqualify it for a FWD vehicle? Or is that too much of a blanket statement?

How much do you think the 1ZZ mods would help (in terms of fuel savings)?

At this point, the 1ZR-FAE is looking like the best option, unless you think another might be better (like another engine, or modding the 1ZZ)? I'm looking for the "best" option available and with a relatively large purchase, I wouldn't want to make the wrong decision, hence the major research now (and thus long posts, again )

Thanks again for the help!
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The 2ZR-FAE makes you tired?
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Weary is a synonym for jaded. Jaded is lacking enthusiasm, which describes how I feel about the 2ZR-FAE. I lack enthusiasm for that engine because of the listed reasons.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Ohhhhh. I figured you'd be wary of it- cautious and circumspect- because of some fe unknowns.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Yes that too! I'm weary and wary!
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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One major caveat in deciding the "best" engine is that no matter what transmission it mates to, it has to be clutchless (auto, multi-mode, etc.). For this application, this just has to be.
What does make a manual unsuitable for you?


Quote:
The first I found is the 3ZZ and 4ZZ engines. There is nothing special about these engines (at least in terms of newer tech) except that they are smaller than the 1ZZ (3ZZ is 1.6L and 4ZZ is 1.4L), thus by default sipping less fuel. My worry, however, is whether or not they would be under powered, but international Corollas use these engines, so I don't think it would be an issue.
They're not underpowered at all, but the wrong gear selection would make them feel so...


Quote:
The next "find" was the 1ZR-FAE. It seems to be a better version of the ZZ family (at least for my needs). I like this engine, because it is smaller (1.6L) and offers Valvematic technology which varies the intake and exhaust timing and the intake valve lift (between 1mm and 11mm). The issue with using this engine is that it is only mated to a manual or a MMT (multi-mode manual). If the MMT is clutchless (say, paddle shifters), then this tranny will work for me.
At least the MMT has lesser friction losses than the 4-speed automatic

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