Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2021, 05:20 PM   #31 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
I'd love one of those axle/motors. 400v isn't going to be necessary...unless you want to hit whatever the Lexus' max speed was.

See? Battery pack was "only" rated for 288v. 400v is the system voltage. Toyota uses a voltage multiplier, something else I would love to get my hands on, that presumably is used to boost battery voltage (perhaps only when necessary) to get more RPMs out of the motor. And maybe increase efficiency? Dunno, since there would be losses from boosting the voltage.

The Insight uses a 600v, 250a IGBT brick. The Civic hybrid has a 300a one. If you had a 288v battery, at 300a, you'd be able to put out 86kw at top speed. Lets say it maxes out at 1000 rpm at the wheels...that would put you in the neighborhood of 600 ft-lbs at 300 amps, at the wheels, after gearing. Bit weak, compared to a first-gear take-off, but after that, you'd be laughing. (if I didn't mess up my math)

Of course, we need to figure out how to control the IGBT first. and then you need a lot of batteries.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 01-31-2021, 06:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 18,308
Thanks: 5,025
Thanked 6,063 Times in 4,852 Posts
I'm wondering what to do with one. I'm not saying we should smuggle it across the border, but maybe we could talk about smuggling it across the border.

My plan B is to query some local electric vehicle association to see if anyone wants to test it. The original thread was all about 'overclocking' one. There was a Korean market/trailer towing option for external cooling but the pump was as $$$ as the drive unit.

"Buck converter' is the term of art I've seen.
__________________
.
The difference between science and screwin' around, is writing it down.
Adam Savage
_________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2021, 06:44 AM   #33 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
Just read(skimmed, looking for pertinent information) through the MGR hotrod thread at last. Started off well, then like 8 pages of no (motor) progress before picking up out of the blue...then it totally died off.

Kinda hard to believe they got the motors running and then completely lost interest?

I'm no whiz (at electrical engineering) at this like Paul...just good at problem solving. I'll leave the real brainwork required to operate a complex motor properly, from scratch, to someone like him. I could replicate his work with a proper schematic, use his code, but not come up with it myself.

The basic concept of turning on each phase, in order, and of other basics, like monitoring current, I can wrap my brain around. And cheat by using off-the-shelf parts and modifying them to suit my needs. But who knows what weird things start happening when you're running high currents and high voltage. I'd have to wrap my head around the math that Paul uses, for starters. Don't think I have that kind of dedication.

Was good to see they figured out the resolver, got the motor running. Would be nice if they continued it, or else "published" their work up to this point(maybe they did?). I thought that was going to be the major draw-back. My problem-solving side was thinking to replace it with something simpler that would work...hall sensors. Which is what I'm thinking for the one on this little motor/generator. a 3d printer would come in handy for making perfect, replicatable(is that a word?) parts. I really should look in to building one...uhg, a project just to make parts for other projects?

I've now got plenty of motors to work out how to drive them successfully...if I ever get them running properly, I'll consider smuggling one of those MGR units.

Not to try and write off your efforts so far, but if ya really want an electric bug, a brushed DC motor with the original gear box would be infinitely easier to put together and get you rolling, at least. (You could go for a big brushless or AC motor instead, but you'd be paying through the nose for off the shelf components).

I'll admit the MGR unit is much more attractive...no gearbox! I would stuff one in the back of my Insight...or maybe even in the front. Just gotta get those guys to continue their work or tell us hoe to replicate what they've done so far...
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stubby79 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (02-01-2021)
Old 02-01-2021, 08:14 AM   #34 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
Prioritizing...a necessity. Let's go over my priorities: (I suggest anyone else taking on any kind of project do the same)

Economy is what it all boils down to, for me. Doing as much with as little drain on my resources as possible.

Anything that's "consumable", is, in the long run, is simply bleeding resources (money). So I have a strong attraction to minimizing the cost of these consumables, either by reducing the use there of, or else finding an alternate consumable that is notably cheaper. The reduced impact on the environment is a happy consequence, one that I'm glad for, but not my driving motivation.

Resources includes time and effort. I have limited spare time, and even less energy/enthusiasm to spare. Look up spoon theory for understanding of the latter; my excuse might not constitute as strong enough to warrant it, but it gives you an idea of how I look at and approach things. My projects and whatnot have to be worth the effort (or lack there of) that I put in. Most of what I get in return is the satisfaction of overcoming a hurtle and the resulting enthusiasm to try and continue. When I get on a roll, I can be super productive for weeks. Eventually I over-do it, or fail hard enough that, either way, I have to recover before continuing, and usually on something else entirely, to get the ball rolling again. My EV project died of neglect - and a stupid oversight - after being too disappointing for me to get back to. I enjoyed the process, though, just wish I hadn't made that simple oversight that killed half of my batteries. Not worth the cost to replace them on something that was a dissapointment...throwing good money after bad and all that. Same with the effort that would have to be put in. Would be much smarter to buy a used Leaf, and not cost much more either.

I'm obsessed with getting what I want/need for projects for as little $$ as possible, like this new motor. Always thrilled when I find such a deal. I could pick up a little 2 or 3kw brushless motor off Aliexpress for about the same price as this one. Much higher RPM, much less durable, much less potential power output. More stout motors on there would cost from $300; one of this power potential, more like $1000. So, yes, I am thrilled to have found these.

Efficiency is another key priority. To me, this reflects in having as light, as small, and as aerodynamic of a vehicle as possible...while still managing to be convenient. There's no point in me spending an hour riding a bike to work every day, unless it's all I could afford to do. (I rode my Honda Cub to work for a couple of years, as it was the most affordable-to-convenient way to get there). It should be enclosed - for weather and aerodynamics - electric, for fuel costs, three wheeled - so I don't have to put my feet down, somehow, while in an enclosed vehicle - and cost as little to insure as possible. That's what I'd like, ultimately. It's a pretty tall order, mainly because of all the ridiculous road and insurance laws around here, but it's still something I keep puzzling out in the background.

So, also regarding efficiency, I look at motor/controller efficiency, battery efficiency, minimizing other electrical draws (waste). Batteries are prohibitively expensive and add weight, so I look to minimize where I can. We end up with things like brushless motors and LEDs as a result...

Back up a bit to effort & convenience...gasoline, diesel and electricity take little to no effort to obtain, so I lean towards them. I love the idea of propane - it's half the price of gasoline around here, burns clean, doesn't spoil, and never spills...it's as close to using a battery as you can get without actually using a battery - but it's not convenient to fill up with. Oh, maybe, with a properly converted propane vehicle...but that's prohibitively both costly difficult to implement. So gasoline, diesel and electricity are my poisons of choice. Diesel's efficiency is enough to offset it's additional drawbacks. Electricity is the best, all around...only drawback is the cost of batteries.

Insurance costs are high on the list of wasteful expenditures. I have to pay as much for each additional vehicle on the road as I do for the first. I spend more on insurance than on gas every month. Not legal to drive without it. A 50cc/1500w "limited speed motorcycle" is the cheapest, besides a trailer, to have on the road...$20-30 a month, vs over $100 for a car; can only have two-wheels, though. Electric bikes don't require insurance, and can have three wheels...though to be legal, they have to have limited power and top speed. You can get away with quite a bit more with one, though, compared to something "street-legal".

Hmm...I think that covers my priorities. Why bother spelling it all out? Perspective. Who cares about some silly, little, dirt-cheap brushless motor that I can only get a few KW out of? Within the perspective I just gave...ME! Guess I never grew out of my obsession with doing as much with as little as I got use to when I was poor in my 20s. Just because I can afford more, now, doesn't make something "better".

My eventual goal? To build that three-wheeled, sit-down, enclosed vehicle...and that took a big step forwards a week ago when I brought home a dirt-cheap, "for-parts" Piaggio MP3. That was a bit of an adventure...some day, I'll build it. Unfortuntely, it's likely to take me years at the pace I get things done...in the meantime, I've got the Insight, which, short of an EV, is the next best thing.

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2021, 01:30 PM   #35 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
Not impressed:



Oh, thrilled with his build, but...soon after I picked up my 3kw ebike motor, he built a 3kw plywood ebike. Then around the time I got the 9kw controller, he put up his video of his electric motorcycle build. Now I mention trike in my previous post and youtube must have been listening, and recommended his trike build from the summer. Not sure how I missed it.

He needs to slow down. He's hurting my feelings. (If I had any).
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2021, 05:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
Tried taking it apart, no dice. Had to buy a 27mm socket to get the nut off the pulley. Odd size.

22mm keyed front shaft:



14/12mm tail shaft:





Thought I'd lost the key...spent 10 minutes looking for it on the floor, only to find it hiding on my bench under the motor.



No photo, but good to note...the 4 big bolts clamping the two halfs of the unit together are in a lovely square, making it 6" square in the middle...nice and tidy for use as mounting points.

And on a side note, I had a regular alternator pulley on my bench, and it just happened to be the same 17mm that both my treadmill motors use. Nice fit:



Can probably turn it around and make it closer to the body of the motor.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4665.JPG
Views:	16
Size:	113.4 KB
ID:	30095   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4668.JPG
Views:	16
Size:	105.1 KB
ID:	30096   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4675.JPG
Views:	16
Size:	111.7 KB
ID:	30097   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4676.JPG
Views:	16
Size:	117.1 KB
ID:	30098   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4677.JPG
Views:	16
Size:	131.9 KB
ID:	30099  

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2021, 03:59 PM   #37 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,642

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 69
Thanked 507 Times in 382 Posts
Another one arrived.

First thing I noticed was the tag saying it was from a 2015 model, and the larger plug on it. It reminded me that I read, somewhere along the way, that in 2013, they upped the power output. I eventually tracked down a snippit that said they were 8.5kw to begin with, but changed in 2013 (presumably for '14 model year?) to 10.5kw. Interesting.

For comparison:


Thicker wires too:


Nothing looks different inside:


Thought they just changed the connector, but they had to widen the casting a bit to make it fit:


Otherwise, they seem identical. Same thickness of windings and number of strands, voltage output spinning at the same speed is identical, pulley and coolant tubes are the same size and they weigh exactly the same(at least on a scale that only does 1/10 of a pound increments).

Hmm. Interesting. Guess they decided the internals were a bit higher rated than the externals? Or just decided it would be cheaper to push it to it's limit rather than redesign the whole thing.

The short bus-bars(the solid metal the wires are bolted to) on the "8.5kw" are a nice shiny silvery color:

(They're reflecting what's around them - the gold of the bolts to the right, the black of the insulator to the left.)

Whereas the "10.5kw" one, the bus-bars have that lovely dark rainbow effect caused by heat:


Maybe they changed their generation strategy for fuel efficiency, opting for more amps at less volts? Lower engine speed = more efficient for low power output, right? right. Your guess is as good as mine.

Part number changed, though it's close:




The junk yards seem to think they're the same. Maybe they send the plugs with them for a reason(though it's probably just because it's quicker to cut them out). With the plug, you could hook a later one up to an earlier model with no bother.

Digging around, trying to find anything solid on the kW rating, I found a snippet that explained the hybrid starter-generator (HSG) as being a "IPMSM" - an "Interior" Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor...well, that explains a lot(or at least gives rise to theories that make sense) . Like...the low level of cogging...why the brushless control found it easy to pick up the back EMF to determine timing...and presumably why there was such a large difference between the input voltage on the controller and the rectified voltage output. (Square wave vs sine wave)

As it's a PMSM, it can supposedly reach 95% efficiency. I suppose I could look at so-called sine-wave controllers...there's a 3kw, 72v one for under a hundred bucks on Ali...but if I ever want to see full potential out of these things, I need to look at Paul's 3-phase, vector controller...

That sounds like too much work.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4828.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	105.5 KB
ID:	30206   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4829.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	88.2 KB
ID:	30207   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4831.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	112.8 KB
ID:	30208   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4832.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	138.7 KB
ID:	30209   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4833.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	147.6 KB
ID:	30210  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4835.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	82.0 KB
ID:	30211   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4837.JPG
Views:	9
Size:	111.0 KB
ID:	30212   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4838.JPG
Views:	8
Size:	110.7 KB
ID:	30213  
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Stubby79 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (02-21-2021)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com