Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[Joeggernaut]

The main issue with these "hidden technologies" compared to gas/diesel is that gas and diesel have a lot of energy per unit of volume.

Why?

Because mother nature has been breaking down, compacting, and extracting the energy into the form of crude for millions of years.

We currently have no technology that can replicate this process in a manageable/renewable time frame. Until that day comes we will be on crude based engines.

Electric is the future for simplicity and everything but batteries have a long way to go along with creating the electricity cleaning/efficiently to power the cars.

The same key to electric cars hold true for HHO in that the most efficient way to split water is with high-temperature electrolysis but that requires nuclear reactor like conditions to even compete with natural gas or coal.

The difference might come in the form of solar energy splitting but then it is more likely and stable to just use the solar electricity directly to the car instead of HHO and having to store hydrogen.

[oil pan 4]

Using solar to replace the alternator can improve fuel milage if you can manage to add the solar panals with out ruining aerodynamics.

[UltArc]

Originally Posted by Joeggernaut

The main issue with these "hidden technologies" compared to gas/diesel is that gas and diesel have a lot of energy per unit of volume.

Why?

Because mother nature has been breaking down, compacting, and extracting the energy into the form of crude for millions of years.

We currently have no technology that can replicate this process in a manageable/renewable time frame. Until that day comes we will be on crude based engines.

Electric is the future for simplicity and everything but batteries have a long way to go along with creating the electricity cleaning/efficiently to power the cars.

The same key to electric cars hold true for HHO in that the most efficient way to split water is with high-temperature electrolysis but that requires nuclear reactor like conditions to even compete with natural gas or coal.

The difference might come in the form of solar energy splitting but then it is more likely and stable to just use the solar electricity directly to the car instead of HHO and having to store hydrogen.

Electric is the future, when it is powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Unfortunatly the little kubotas only manage 14% running at 1/3 load.
1/3 of a gallon of diesel in, 2kw out over 1hr.
Typically from governed speed at no load to 100% load you see fuel consumption double.
When you compair no load to 1/3 load there is usually about a 10% difference in fuel consumption. Using that rule of thumb at full load they should be about 23% to 24% efficient. This is real world output and is good considering the engine is supplying power to turn the radiator fan, gives the coolant pump its power to turn, the engine effectivly providing all its own cooling, the generator is moving air to cool its self, the battery charging alternator is turning at 2x to 3x crank speed moving air plus only generates power with about 50% efficiency at best.

When an engine is efficiency tested that engine is tested at all speeds usually only has to pump its own oil, some times its own coolant and they post the peak number. Thats it, no radiator fans, alternators and such to rob shaft power or set speed to limit efficiency.

I have one of these and work on them all the time. I know big improvements could be made with out reinventing the combustion process.
Simple things like dropping down to 50Hz at least for light loads. Installing an over sized cooling system that usually doesn't require use of a fan and add a thermal switch controled electric fan, we see good gains on belt driven fan deletes with on road vehicles. It would apply here too.
Delete the battery charging alternator and replace it with a 110 volt plug in battery charger, it does the same thing as the battery charging alt with no moving parts and 90% or better efficiency.
Replace the exhaust manifold with a header. If the engine will be ran under medium to heavy load maybe install a more efficient 3 phase generator, run mild water injection, add a turbo and intercooler.

You are speaking of Net efficiency while I was speaking of Gross efficiency. Subtract your losses from your Gross value and your net power output will be as you say.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Joeggernaut

The main issue with these "hidden technologies" compared to gas/diesel is that gas and diesel have a lot of energy per unit of volume.

Why?

Because mother nature has been breaking down, compacting, and extracting the energy into the form of crude for millions of years.

We currently have no technology that can replicate this process in a manageable/renewable time frame. Until that day comes we will be on crude based engines.

This is only one of many ways of turning biomass into a form of hydrocarbon crude.

Biocrude Production from Switchgrass Using Subcritical Water - Energy & Fuels (ACS Publications)

Electric is the future for simplicity and everything but batteries have a long way to go along with creating the electricity cleaning/efficiently to power the cars.

The same key to electric cars hold true for HHO in that the most efficient way to split water is with high-temperature electrolysis but that requires nuclear reactor like conditions to even compete with natural gas or coal.

The difference might come in the form of solar energy splitting but then it is more likely and stable to just use the solar electricity directly to the car instead of HHO and having to store hydrogen.

Batteries are the Achilles heel of electric portable motive systems. People seem to think that time and money will bring down the cost of batteries while increasing performance much like current electronic development. But battery development does not follow Moore's Law. It is constrained by physical laws, and battery development has been and will be incremental and not geometric.

[Joeggernaut]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

This is only one of many ways of turning biomass into a form of hydrocarbon crude.

Biocrude Production from Switchgrass Using Subcritical Water - Energy & Fuels (ACS Publications)




Batteries are the Achilles heel of electric portable motive systems. People seem to think that time and money will bring down the cost of batteries while increasing performance much like current electronic development. But battery development does not follow Moore's Law. It is constrained by physical laws, and battery development has been and will be incremental and not geometric.

I know there are ways to turn create bio-diesel but the main problem is the inefficiencies in the technology compared to the output. They do not match those of basic crude. I have read numerous switch-grass and algae bio-diesel reports and I have found they are awesome to think about but the science behind them is not enough to replace crude. We are able to accelerate mother natures process but we cannot match it yet in a manageable time frame. We are trying to play catch up in a 5k race and mother-nature is 3 feet from the finish line.

I am all for clean renewable bio-diesel over current electric and crude operated cars but it will be awhile before output can match demand. By then electric cars will probably be the norm and the bio-diesel created then will be just to power generation plants and not individual cars. Electric engines are much simpler and reliable than complex mechanical internal combustion engines.

I agree if battery technology doesn't improve enough by the time we are able to match bio-diesel output with crude then all electric cars will be very far distant future. In the end everything comes down to economics.

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by Joeggernaut

We are trying to play catch up in a 5k race and mother-nature is 3 feet from the finish line.

Your point has at least some validity, but your analogy breaks down here. There is no finish line, after which we are "done". So we are running across the country, Mother Nature is a long way ahead of us, but we are hopping on our mountain bike and hoping we can pass her before it all becomes pointless.

Or some smart soul works out "super ultra capacitor batteries" and plugs his helicopter in to them, blowing past us both at several hundred knots. Which, as you point out, is not at all assured.

But we do have to keep trying.

-soD

[justme1969]

Whew finished! I read everything with exception to the rude banter skipped past it.
Now I have a few nuggets myself First; is Id seen no mention of preheating with manifold exhaust.
Second; Is Iceland. no mention of thier efforts to be petrol free and geothermic generation of HH. This is used now today.
Third; is absence of methelyne. No it doesnt have the potential energy of other fuels but if a hot running engine could use scavenge heat to help create HH It could be add in similar to your tests with petrol It burns hotter thus enhancing HH production??
Last: there was an article where scavenged exhaust gas was introduced into combustion cycle to super heat fuel air mixture to just at combustion to lean burn 99.9% of potential energy. that system would be ideal candidate for testing this issue as designer was adding water to fuel air to prevent preignition.
Well I hope ive brought yall, something to the table and not simple known items you have already dismissed.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by justme1969

Whew finished! I read everything with exception to the rude banter skipped past it.
Now I have a few nuggets myself First; is Id seen no mention of preheating with manifold exhaust.
Second; Is Iceland. no mention of thier efforts to be petrol free and geothermic generation of HH. This is used now today.
Third; is absence of methelyne. No it doesnt have the potential energy of other fuels but if a hot running engine could use scavenge heat to help create HH It could be add in similar to your tests with petrol It burns hotter thus enhancing HH production??
Last: there was an article where scavenged exhaust gas was introduced into combustion cycle to super heat fuel air mixture to just at combustion to lean burn 99.9% of potential energy. that system would be ideal candidate for testing this issue as designer was adding water to fuel air to prevent preignition.
Well I hope ive brought yall, something to the table and not simple known items you have already dismissed.

Yes, heat recycling is a topic other researchers have looked into via EGR and exhaust to intake super heating, but the research has been limited or oblique.

[justme1969]

The system I seen is with capillary tubing inside a custom manifold. original design failed due to mass restriction for length of tube required for effective thermal transfer.