Need some victums to help me confirm results

[Nerys]

My contention was that ethanol was hurting my FE so badly that it was actually causing me to use MORE GAS than without ethanol ie no savings at all in pollution or oil demand. it actually makes both WORSE.

Here is what I know or "think" I know so far.

all my vehicles (6 of them) have seen a 15% to 27% drop in fuel economy since Ethanol was introduced. I was able to "see" this change tank to tank as I went from E10 stations to Non E10 stations (of which there are now NONE locally)

My Metro should get 58mpg highway 53 city (sorry the new ratings are hogwash to me I am 100% successful until the metro at beating EPA rating without even trying probably due to my very long easy highway low speed commute (50mph 54miles one way))

Also in the past I saw ZERO change between one station and another top tier or joe's gas.

I saw almost NO change from summer to winter blends (maybe 1 to 1.5mpg average change)

I have well over 700,000 miles on these 6 cars 493,000 on my cherokee of which I put 401,000 of those miles on it)

When I drive out of state to places without E10 my "normal" fuel economy returns with no other changes to the vehicles. (only the Club wagon has done this since its the only car I take out of state ie out of PA/NJ it used to get 19mpg solid. on ethanol it gets 13-15mpg depending on what gas stations I goto namely wawa with lower ethanol gets me 15mpg everyone else so far gets me 13mpg)

When we were toggling between E10 and E0 stations I got 19 again when I went to E0 when I went out of state to michigan I got 19mpg again for that trip when I got home again 15mpg again.

All anecdotal but I figure list it all.

SO I came up with a way to TEST this and my newest car my Geo Metro made it practical to actually DO it.

The metro gets 48mpg summer 45mpg winter. 50mpg winter just barely if I do not exceed 45mph.

I found out how to REMOVE the ethanol from the fuel. Toss a bunch of water in it and force Phase Seperation to occur on command.

Alcohol (ethanol) is Hygroscopic. its attracted to water will DRAW IT IN in fact and combine with it.

its one of the reasons E10 is so bad for small engines like lawn mowers weed whackers motorcycles boats etc...

so I dump a gallon of water in a container and then dump 3 or 4 gallons of E10 into same container. Mix like mad let it settle and then using the spigot I installed in the bottom drain off the water and alcohol.

I got the idea when I got an Ethanol Test Kit which was basically a test tube with markings on it.

fill with water to line. Fill with gas the rest of the way.

if the line "moves" you have Ethanol in the fuel because the alcohol will leave the case and join the water raising its line in the tube.

No change No ethanol or at least not enough to force a separation.

So I wondered could I do that large scale and would the gas be safe. Consensus was it "should" be safe so I decided to try it

I use 92 Premium Octane Wawa gas (always from the same station) why 92 premium? Ethanol is an octane booster. remove it and you lose a lot of octane 2.75 points one site said 3-4 points another said.

SO when I wash the 92 octane premium I end up with 88-89 octane IE close enough to regular to keep the engine happy.

My fuel economy with 7 gallons of Washes gas and 3.6 gallons of E10 was 54.25mpg and in far less than ideal conditions (traffic for 30 minutes rain and wind for 2 days)

My next tank which should be over 85% Washed gas got me 55.13 mpg in better but not ideal condition (rain and wind)

The tank I am on right now should be over 95% E10 free I am estimating less than 2% E10 ie less than .5% ethanol unless the washing does not get rid of "all" of it.

Here is my Plan.

I know where to get E0 but its far away (2 hours) so to make it work I have to spend $200 $80+ dollars to bring home 40 gallons minimum fuel and $80 to buy all the gas cans to carry 40 gallons.

Well I already have 5 cans so I only need 3 more.

So to see if its worth it I need to test it so I tried the washed gas (plus if the washing works I have an easy way to make the small quantities of gas I need for my power tools motorcycle's etc..)

IT WORKS so the next step is a trip to allentown once I have the cash.

since it does work I also want to enact step 2 of step 2

that is where YOU guys come in. I need other people to VERIFY my results.

because step 3 on confirmation from allentown gas is to open a political can of woop ass on PA/NJ and Washington.

SOME of you have access to BOTH E10 and E0

I need some people who RELIABLY check there mpg and have consistent driving habits for reliable data. with the Fuel Log of ecomodder this seems like the right group to do this with :-)

I need people who do not fill up till almost empty IE using over 90% of the fuel in the car. ie drive to empty almost.

I need people to give me 2 or 3 tanks of E10 then 2 or 3 tanks of E0 then E10 then E0

I want to see if others see the same huge changes I am seeing.

For those that do NOT have access you might try washing it like i do. BE WARNED I have no idea what this will do to your car. Its not doing anything to my 94 Metro XFI "SO FAR" for all I know I am destroying my engine and don't know it. I doubt it but hey it has to be said.

the thing is you CAN NOT do ABA testing if you wash your gas. you WILL introduce water into your car when you wash it. You never get ALL the water out. Mix TOO MUCH washed gas and regular E10 and you could cause the E10 in your car to "Phase Separate"

IE you end up with a half gallon or gallon of water and alcohol at the bottom of your tank ready to be sucked into your engine. IE not good.

My metro has a recirculating fuel system so the fuel is always going back to the tank and the injector "takes" what it needs from this constantly going stream.

Cars with one way delivery would be sucking down pure water and alcohol into their systems. IE you can't do ABA testing.

if you have access to E0 then your ok since thats REAL E0 ie not washed ie no water :-)

This is why I need to bring home 40 gallons. SO I can do some ABA testing.

SO who wants to help?

now there is one more thing. I need to know what your car is specifically the year.

You see the math says we should only see a 3 or 4 % drop in FE with E10

I believe this is correct but only for NEW CARS.

older cars ie Pre 2000 cars (I have no idea where the cut off is) I can say upto 1996 (my minivan year) the horrible effects are present. at what year it changes or if its different for each car I have no idea.

HERE is what we THINK we know.

The older cars can't "ignite" the ethanol. The spark plug does not ignite it. The flame front from the ignited GASOLINE burns the ethanol.

see the problem? the ethanol ignites "late" which causes all kinds of problems and reasons for much larger than 4% FE loses.

I can actually go FURTHER on 9 gallons of washed gas than I can on 10 gallons of E10 !! 16 miles further to be exact on a gallon LESS. Something is wrong with this picture.

What gave me us whatever this idea was someone with a modern Hybrid who also saw a HUGE drop in FE with the switch to E10 (2006 or 2004 model ??) hybrid SUV IIRC.

took it to the dealer and they "fixed" it with new firmware or reprogramming of the computer. IE hotter "spark"

once they did that he still saw a drop but it was the "expected" 4% drop not the nearly 30% drop he was seeing.

I think the newer cars made with the idea of E10 have a hotter SPARK and can "light" the ethanol properly.

our older cars do not and likely "can not" do this. So we see much much higher losses.

SO who wants to help test this?

One extra thing I NEED you do to if at all possible at least once each time. TEST the gas for Ethanol content. Preferably with a test kit so you can tell how much Ethanol is inside the gas but just a presence test is good enough.

Small test tube like container. put some water in it (say half way) use a sharpie or something and MARK the water line.

always fill with water to that line

add gas seal it and shake it like crazy and let it settle. if the water line is ABOVE the line you drew you have Ethanol in the fuel.

If the line does not change you just confirmed NO ethanol present.

[bgd73]

I cannot help, I am carbed and no accurate fuel measure..but you did help me with somethng related to water and ethanol fuel. I am certain maine has way more than 10%,in fact it is insane.



long story short, my car got hit in the bumper...I thought something happened to the tank,farther into the body (I have an 87 subaru carbed- the cheapest gas tank subaru ever shipped in 35 years of american sales is in my car..lucky me...hit and runs not welcome)

I caught a strange reaction in the fog..and could find no leak. not a single one..then on the ground, after just following my nose to a very strange gaseous odor (not gasoline) the next day had a puddle of diesel like stuff and smell...and it refused to disperse in the sun.

I am with you about giving hell to gov't that will listen. I have a danger..
the fix of course is stepping tank up to the safety of 60psi tested. Just thought I would reveal the results of my accident with you. Water is indeed attracted to it..and the result is a weird freaky chemical. I do not even know if it is flammable. I do know it is crazy gas related..and that is all I need to know...and my locale is the craziest thermal this side of the desert in a night mountain breeze..so that does help separate and create things...fuel is not the only agitator...but big part of it.

[MadisonMPG]

You should say you have a "3 Maine bearing".

[jkp1187]

I have to admit, I might be interested in trying to help. I've been tracking fuel economy regularly for over a year now. The problem is that every fuel pump around here has an "up to 10% e10" sticker. Last summer, a Shell station within walking distance didn't have an e10 sticker (which means they either were using e0 or were in violation of the Pa. law that requires them to disclose ethanol content,) but they added the stickers in September.

The other problem is inconsistent driving habits - some weeks I just drive 20 miles round trip to work, other weeks, I'll take a side trip to visit friends and family.

I do, however, try to track whether or not the pump has an e10 sticker, so I could at least share that information....

(My cars are both newer, post 2005 model years.)

[Nerys]

if you DRIVE consistently and gently you should still be able to get a nice consistent fuel average. First thing to do is only use ONE gas station. The fuel varies hugely from station to station by ethanol content at least around me it does. I have measured asd low as 6-8% at wawa and as high as 13% at joe's gas. Sunoco on 73 used to be 6-8% like wawa then they started to get 10-11% so I stopped going their.

the other thing is NEVER partial fill. always run it till the low fuel light comes on if you have one and if you know it works right (in my club wagon when the low fuel light came on it was already too late you were out of gas :-) hehe I did that once sitting in line at the gas station. Some punk cuts in front of me so I have to wait longer the low fuel light comes on and 30 second later engine dies :-) out of gas. Lot of good that light did me :-) hehehe

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Nerys

if you DRIVE consistently and gently you should still be able to get a nice consistent fuel average. First thing to do is only use ONE gas station. The fuel varies hugely from station to station by ethanol content at least around me it does. I have measured asd low as 6-8% at wawa and as high as 13% at joe's gas. Sunoco on 73 used to be 6-8% like wawa then they started to get 10-11% so I stopped going their.

the other thing is NEVER partial fill. always run it till the low fuel light comes on if you have one and if you know it works right (in my club wagon when the low fuel light came on it was already too late you were out of gas :-) hehe I did that once sitting in line at the gas station. Some punk cuts in front of me so I have to wait longer the low fuel light comes on and 30 second later engine dies :-) out of gas. Lot of good that light did me :-) hehehe

Is this how you usually fill. Wait until the low fuel light comes on?

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by Nerys

if you DRIVE consistently and gently you should still be able to get a nice consistent fuel average. First thing to do is only use ONE gas station. The fuel varies hugely from station to station by ethanol content at least around me it does. I have measured asd low as 6-8% at wawa and as high as 13% at joe's gas. Sunoco on 73 used to be 6-8% like wawa then they started to get 10-11% so I stopped going their.

the other thing is NEVER partial fill. always run it till the low fuel light comes on if you have one and if you know it works right (in my club wagon when the low fuel light came on it was already too late you were out of gas :-) hehe I did that once sitting in line at the gas station. Some punk cuts in front of me so I have to wait longer the low fuel light comes on and 30 second later engine dies :-) out of gas. Lot of good that light did me :-) hehehe

I hate waiting until the low fuel light comes on.... generally, I fill when it gets between 1/2 and 1/4 tank, although I ALWAYS fill it up every time I buy gas.

I almost always drive consistently, so no problems there, I thought you meant a consistent route. (Though my wife has a different driving style, so can't really control for that.)

My Fuelly profile is here if you wanted to see what I've recorded so far... The notes section is broken into: odometer; MPG according to on-board computer; average speed according to on-board computer; station/fuel type; whether fuel was e10 or not; other misc. notes

jkp1187's profile | Fuelly

[Danncomm]

Another problem you might be experiencing is that sometimes the gas station is trying to provide fuel with a bigger profit margin, we had a chain of stations here in Iowa that was mixing E10 and E85 and selling it as E10. Some of the locals were noticing a dramatic drop in their mileage when ever they stopped by the stations and complained to the state that they thought something was wrong, the state tested and found on average close to 35% rather than the stated 10% in the fuel. Didn't hear much except the owners got fined lots but, not sure they stayed in business or not.

[Nerys]

yeah uhh E35 can DESTROY your car. I mean really destroy it as in its totalled engine rebuild. Ouch.

also voids warranties as well

I don't have a low fuel light on the metro but I fill by "miles driven" in the van I fill at 300-350 miles. in the metro I fill once I have passed 400 miles

the problem with filling too soon is accuracy. you NEVER EVER fill the same way twice. unless you fill with the car parked the same way and until you see GAS in the opening of your fill hole and it stops going down IE filled to the tippy top. you NEVER fill the same way.

now the more gas you have to add the more this "discrepancy" gets watered down no pun intended :-) Especially if you have a smaller tank like a 10 gallon tank.\

if I missfill by even half a gallon that could equate to huge MPG readings when I do the math. Example lets say My car at "normal" fill needs 8.5 gallons and I went 460 miles

54.11 mpg

if I UNDER fill by half a gallon I will record 57.5mpg if i over fill by half a gallon i will record 51.11 mpg

thats a pretty huge "range" covering almost 7mpg almost a 6% discrepancy. the get the same 6% mis calculation on a 1.6 gallon fill you only need to screw up by .09 gallons less than a tenth of a gallon.

so fill consistancy is critical and the more gas you add the more diluted that missfill is.

a misfill on a 1.6 gallon fillup is much larger by percentage than a missfill on an 18 gallon fillup.

thats why you want to wait as long as possible before filling. it also "smoothly" our your FE differences ie a more accurate average.

Whenever I see people recording insane mpg fills with 1 and 2 gallon fills I immediately dismiss those figures because there is simply no way they are accurate. If your not using at least 80% of the gas each fill your just not likely to get good accurate numbers.

also fuel dilution becomes an issue if your changing gas. fill at half way and your running 50% old gas 50% new gas. ie you can not easily compare them that way unless you run at least 3 tanks to dilute out the other places gas.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Nerys

yeah uhh E35 can DESTROY your car. I mean really destroy it as in its totalled engine rebuild. Ouch.

This is not ture if your can is newer then around 1990 ish.

I always though that the low fuel light came on when you fuel pump was starting to be uncovered with gas. You need the fuel to cool the pump. Running very low on gas is not a good idea and will shorten the life of the fuel pump.

I do agree that short fills can make quite a bit of diffenerence in the MPG but it will also show on the next tank.
Of course that could be another urban legend. As always YMMV.