Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2011, 04:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ryland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903

honda cb125 - '74 Honda CB 125 S1
90 day: 79.71 mpg (US)

green wedge - '81 Commuter Vehicles Inc. Commuti-Car

Blue VX - '93 Honda Civic VX
Thanks: 867
Thanked 433 Times in 353 Posts
I don't mind not getting tax write offs for any solar I install, but I don't like the fact that coal and oil get big tax write offs and tend to have some of the largest tax refunds of anyone in the country, so in the end more of my tax dollar is going to coal and oil then could ever go to renewable energy.

I was a little shocked to hear that companies like Evergreen Solar went under, but they were also working with some very new ideas in manufacturing solar panels, things like growing silicon in ribbons instead of in round rods, so they spent a lot on new tec that never hit the main stream and yet for every solar panel manufacturer that I hear about going under in the USA I hear about two new factories opening up here.
On top of all of that, the installed price of solar is getting to that price point that people only dreamed of 10 years ago and it's been proven time and time again that it will last, to the point where your big question is not how you are going to pay for it, but who is going to get your solar electric system in your will.

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 09-18-2011, 06:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,190
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,522 Times in 1,123 Posts
...it's simple: the LABOR and production COSTS are so much lower overseas that USA startups are literally climbing a (very) steep $-wall over here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 10:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
sid
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 202

grayranger - '10 Ford Ranger XL 2 door supercab
90 day: 32.79 mpg (US)
Thanks: 27
Thanked 48 Times in 28 Posts
One concern I have is with reliability. PV panels from US and Japanese sources have been very reliable over the years. Many panels built decades ago are still producing at least 80 % of their new rated power. Are Chinese panels going to be as reliable?

For comparison, compact fluorescent bulbs were also very reliable until the Chinese started producing them. All but one of the bulbs I bought in the 1980's and 1990's (over a dozen) still work. But two of five Chinese bulbs I have failed in less than a year. I've heard this same complaint from many others.
__________________
2010 Ford Ranger, extra cab, 2.3 liter
http://www.stonemarmot.com

Band's latest song/music video "Black Hole Jezebel"
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 10:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ryland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903

honda cb125 - '74 Honda CB 125 S1
90 day: 79.71 mpg (US)

green wedge - '81 Commuter Vehicles Inc. Commuti-Car

Blue VX - '93 Honda Civic VX
Thanks: 867
Thanked 433 Times in 353 Posts
Longevity is key, Kyrocera has been around for a long time, they build panels in the USA and Japan and last I checked some of their panels were getting close to $2 per watt (really cheap!) but people see 99 cent per watt HappySun panels or whatever from China and they flock to them, the Arco solar panels (Siemens bought them out in 1989) that my parents have are getting close to 30 years old and are still producing at their rated output (not at 80%) and I suspect that they will keep producing at their rated output for another 30 to 50 years or more.
But if you look at what types of solar panels people have issues with, they are the printed solar cells, the flexible solar cells and the Chinese made panels.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 11:12 PM   #25 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 808 Times in 592 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
@Ian - Your argument works, but is based on the fact that someone else at the end of the pipe, wire or cable is ready to consume that energy.
That's why you have an electric (or plug-in hybrid) car :-) And if your car (and the grid) is smart enough, it'll know to charge itself when there's excess energy being produced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
IamIan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 692
Thanks: 371
Thanked 227 Times in 140 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
@Ian - Your argument works, but is based on the fact that someone else at the end of the pipe, wire or cable is ready to consume that energy.
not quiet ... let me try and explain.... sorry this post did get a bit longer than intended.

My statement was about what you pay for some amount of kwh of electrical energy... and how that varies from context to context ... RE is not always cheaper than the grid and it is not always more expensive than the grid for that same quantity of kwh of electrical energy... context matters.

Usage of that energy how , where, when , etc ... are all valid and important issues ... for determining a specific context ... which would be 100% in agreement with my previous statement.

The variation from one context to the next is not based on any unilateral assumption in 100% synchronized usage.

Even if some of the RE ( solar or whatever ) was wasted ... that does not necessarily guarantee anything one way or the other without still quantifying the specific context... how much was wasted or used , etc...

Context matters... it is not a black and white issue one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
And that that pipe, wire or cable is inside a reasonable range to be able to use it - there is a limit to how far you can "transport" electricity. Otherwise it is wasted.
Transportation losses are a benefit to distributed RE intertie systems.

100% grid centralized power plants will have more transportation losses ... this issue is a negative for the centralized grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Unfortunately also at the times when Solar (and indeed Wind) are being productive the demand isn't there.
This goes back into context of the application again.

Last I checked Peak power demand for the utility grid was during daylight hours ... when the sun is providing energy for Solar types of RE... So I see it as there is significant demand that coincides beautifully with some forms of RE... and I don't agree with , "the demand isn't there".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
We could store it of course
Storing still goes back to the context of the application again.

Storing momentary surplus is not a issue for all application contexts of RE.

Not an issue for solar sized bellow the up swing surge the grid sees during the daylight hours.

Not an issue for hydro-electric ... which has built in storage.

etc.

Even if storage is needed for some specific application context ... that is not necessarily guaranteed to mean anything one way or the other.

When it is needed the storage just becomes part of the specifics of a applications context ... and weighs into the analysis of that context ... depending on the context it could still go either way , and be either more or less expensive than the grid for the same quantity of used kwh of electrical energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
But these have limits in terms of the energy stored vs costs, and potential energy release vs the energy originally produced.
100% agree ... and sometimes in some contexts RE will be more expensive per unit of energy than the grid ... and in other contexts RE will be less expensive per unit of energy than the grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
A conventional power station can be stoked up and added to the grid as and when the demand is needed. Even if you take into account the polution of this solution and the resources required, having something you can just pop-on when needed seems far more efficient that making too much of something and storing it and watch it decline until you decide you need it.
It might seem more efficient ... but depending on the context of a specific application ... it may or may not be more efficient.

More or less efficient ( while it is important ) is also a very different issue from more or less expensive for the same quantity of energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Argument - An idling power station does consume energy, but nuclear (at least) makes its own.
I doubt you intended it ... I just don't like that wording ... so this bit is mostly just a pet peeve of mine.

My 2 bits ... nuclear doesn't make it's own energy any more than a coal power plant makes it's own energy ... they both consume a fuel and operate at less than 100% efficiency ... Neither one makes energy... they convert it from one form to another at significantly less than 100% efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
But when I check my power bill and find a 5-10% levy added to fund this so called "competitive" energy source, and when I read things like wind farms being paid not to produce anything then I wonder if that energy is really all that "free" in the first place.
Fair.

The government tax payer funded support for fossil fuels falls into the same argument... And I don't like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
The debate of course is where the 'free' part comes from and what we include in the costs of conventional (including nuclear) energy. Thats tetchy and starts arguments about politics, so I'm not going there.
Not my debate.

My debate was just the simple concept that :
Context matters.

It is not a 100% black and or white issue one way or the other as far as what it cost per unit of energy... In different contexts the grid is cheaper per kwh ... and in other contexts RE is cheaper per kwh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
I remain optimistic about renewables and would agree with an investment in fundamental research into how this can be achieved but again I object to people in the UK being forced to decide between food and heat/light just so someone can make a lot of money from an artificial levy and subsidy.
I'd go further ... myself.

I think the government has done its part ... neither the fossil fuel industry nor the RE industry need the crutch anymore... let them both stand on their own.

The only role I still see the government should be playing is in the appropriate regulations ... worker rights, building codes, illegal discrimination , pollution, truth in advertising , consumer right to know, etc ... types things.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to IamIan For This Useful Post:
Arragonis (09-20-2011)
Old 09-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #27 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
IamIan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 692
Thanks: 371
Thanked 227 Times in 140 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryland View Post
I don't mind not getting tax write offs for any solar I install, but I don't like the fact that coal and oil get big tax write offs and tend to have some of the largest tax refunds of anyone in the country, so in the end more of my tax dollar is going to coal and oil then could ever go to renewable energy.
Last I checked ... the difference in tax payer funded support looked like the attached bellow:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Fosel_Fuel_Subsidy.JPG
Views:	19
Size:	125.9 KB
ID:	9465  
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to IamIan For This Useful Post:
Ryland (09-19-2011)
Old 09-20-2011, 04:13 AM   #28 (permalink)
The PRC.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Elsewhere.
Posts: 5,304
Thanks: 285
Thanked 535 Times in 384 Posts
@Ian - I think we are coming to the same ideas maybe from different starting points.

__________________
[I]So long and thanks for all the fish.[/I]
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Arragonis For This Useful Post:
IamIan (09-20-2011)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com