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Old 10-19-2014, 04:17 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mort View Post
Here is current electrical pricing. Note industrial rates for Washington state. Bonneville it is.
-mort
I work at the single largest consumer of electricity, natural gas, and water in the county (silicon wafer manufacturing plant). I overheard someone say our electric bill is $3,000,000 per month. At $0.044/Kwh, that is an enormous amount of energy.

Recently we had motion sensing lights installed in most areas on the campus. I'd be surprised if it put the slightest dent in the monthly bill. The florescent bulbs have been burning out at an extremely rapid pace compared to the older lights that were run more continuously.

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Originally Posted by Astro View Post
Soooo cheap... those might have been the prices a hundred years ago where i live but not today.
Here in Australia, in the lovely state of Victoria the prices are about 30 cents / kWh peak times and about half that during off peak times (11pm to 7am).
Then there is the daily base charge (supply charge) of around $1.10 per day, roughly $33 per month...

At the prices you are paying why doesn't everybody have an electric car.
Your monthly base charge is my total summertime bill. My (deported) roommate is Australian, and it was my understanding that the cost of living in Australia is much higher than the U.S. Everything costs more, but the minimum wage is higher, and there is more socialized services.

Where I live, it is roughly 1/3 the cost in energy to drive an EV compared to a conventional gasoline car. EVs seem to make the most financial sense as a 2nd vehicle for families with more than 1 vehicle.

I would have a Leaf as a 4th vehicle, but I don't purchase new vehicles, and there aren't many other affordable EV options yet.

With gasoline at $3/gallon, it would take a very long time for a $30,000 Leaf to come out ahead of a used $10,000 gasser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Add in the limited life of the Leaf battery at $5,500 every 5 years/ 80,000 miles (hidden cost of $0.07 / mile is probably quite a bit higher than a ice drivetrain), and the limited range, and the best gas cars are still cheaper to run and more versatile.
The average useful lifetime of the battery pack is estimated to go 10 years and over 100,000 miles. If you choose a worst case scenerio for an EV and compare it to a gasser, you must also choose the worst case scenario for the gasser.

According to Edmunds, the total cost of ownership over 5 years for a new Leaf is $31,600 compared to the Prius C, at $31,800.

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Old 10-19-2014, 07:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Because gas in my town is only $3.20 / gallonUS, $0.85 / Liter right now and going down.
Yeah, i am paying about $1.80 a litre so both fuel and electricity are expensive here.
Makes the electric car very attractive as it will recharge overnight on the cheaper electricity rates and likely be offset by my excess solar production. So zero cost transport.

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My electricity is $0.15 / kWh so a leaf is $0.045 / mile and a PriusC costs $0.058. A Ford Fiesta is $0.08. Add in the limited life of the Leaf battery at $5,500 every 5 years/ 80,000 miles (hidden cost of $0.07 / mile is probably quite a bit higher than a ice drivetrain), and the limited range, and the best gas cars are still cheaper to run and more versatile.
I wonder how much that batteries will actually cost in 5 years. Even at 70% capacity loss the Leaf would still get me to work and back. So maybe i would get more than 5 years between replacements.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:31 AM   #33 (permalink)
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The Leaf battery is warranted for 8 years if I am not mistaken. Very few have needed a full replacement. The new so called "lizard" battery is likely to be much more robust.

So, I don't think you can count on a $5,500 expense every five years. My sister-in-law's 2011 Leaf is fine - not even lost one bar on the meter.

I think a battery replacement is going to be about as common as a engine rebuild / replacement.

My spouse will be driving Forest today through Thursday. I will post her energy mileage.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:43 AM   #34 (permalink)
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This is my peak usage, in the dead of winter, in a 2100 sq/ft home. Gas heating keeps the bill low. Water bill represents 2 months usage.



An EV makes perfect sense at this utility rate.
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:30 AM   #35 (permalink)
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@redpoint5
We have a fourth utility which is sewerage. (So gas, water, electricity and sewerage)
They work out the sewage disposal charge by charging you again for a percentage of your water usage.

Your water usage here would have cost.
Water service charge = $36.43
Water usage charge = 520cu ft = 14.725 kilolitres @ $2.3060 per kilolitre = $33.95
Sewerage service charge = $41.21
Sewage disposal charge = 85% of water usage @ $1.7994 per kilolitre = $22.52
Melbourne Water waterways and drainage charge = $15.50
Parks Victoria charge = $11.77
Total water and sewerage for the two months would be $161.38

Your electricity for the one month listed would be
Usage charge = 460 kWh @ $0.30 per kWh = $138
Service charge = 33 days at $1.10 per day = $36.30
Total electricity charges = $174.30

Bill total would be $335.68

This sort of electricity cost makes solar very attractive and the excess solar production makes the EV make sense. Especially as they only pay 8 cents per kWh for any excess you supply to the grid. So you save more by using the generated solar power yourself. Each solar kWh you use yourself saves you 30 cents, every kWh you sell makes you 8 cents.
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:03 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro View Post
@redpoint5
We have a fourth utility which is sewerage. (So gas, water, electricity and sewerage)
They work out the sewage disposal charge by charging you again for a percentage of your water usage...

Bill total would be $335.68
This isn't my total utility bill, as I'm charged separately for sewage disposal. It's a flat $35 per month, so $70 every two. My total water/sewer bill for 2 months is $100, or $50 per month.

For the sake of giving a more complete view of my utilities in the NW, here is my gas bill for the year.



I also pay $15 per month for garbage, $30 for internet (25mbps), $8 for Netflix, and $8 gym membership at 24hr Fitness.

It's just me and my wife in a 2,100 sq/ft home.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I remember a recent discussion on here regarding Prius batteries, that when they go bad, it is usually only one cell, which you can replace far cheaper than the entire pack. I watched a video of a guy from a company in the Phoenix area that did that. Would Leaf battery packs be similar, just larger? After 5-10 years you test each cell, replace the ones that area actually bad, and then go on your merry way?
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:48 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Maybe. As time goes on and they're used, the pack capacity will diminish. Some cells will degrade faster than others. So, say you only have 5 cells and the capacitys are as shown after 5 years:

1) 80%
2) 84%
3) 74%
4) 79%
5) 82%

Obviously, the 74% one is the most degraded. You can replace it with a new 100% cell. However, now your weakest cell is 79%. So, you gained 5% more capacity which isn't a ton. If you want to get back to more than 84% capacity, you have to replace all the cells. This is most likely what will happen. Darin showed this when he capacity tested his Insight cells.

The other way things could go, if they are poorly designed or just have low quality batteries is one or two cells could just go bad much faster than the others:

1) 50%
2) 84%
3) 74%
4) 79%
5) 82%

Now, obviously the 50% cell would be replaced. Now you go from a pack capacity of 50% to 74% which is a huge gain. This case is much less likely IMO as OEMs have tested stuff to death and we really shouldn't have these issues. However, on DIY stuff, with using cheaper components and no BMS system sometimes, this is more likely.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:47 PM   #39 (permalink)
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My spouse commuted yesterday for the first time in Forest. And today she got stuck in traffic for a while, and the pedestrian warning noise gave her a splitting headache. Which sucks, because they no longer have the button to disable it. That was what got some "advocates" upset. Sigh ...

It seems like a solution in search of a problem, really.

We are also wrestling with the lease mileage limit of 12K a year. That is just 32 miles a day, and I for one, had hoped we could drive this car as much as possible, to save as much gasoline as possible.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:21 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
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There are three switches for the seat heaters: one for each front seat, and one for the whole back seat. There is a switch for heating the steering wheel. We think the side mirrors are heated whenever the rear defroster is on, but I'll confirm that.
You have got me beat.

This is the main thing I loved about the leaf, volt has no option for heated steering or heated rear seat.

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