Oil Changes: your .02 ?

[kir_kenix]

Originally Posted by Dunkler

This is not to say that you are wrong however... I know a guy who scoffed at the idea of EVER changing your oil. He drove a mid 90's GMC Jimmy for close to 300k miles on, literally, just a couple of oil changes... The motor did finally seize, but that's a load of miles on just a couple of oil changes. The guy is a surgeon here in Arkansas and he said that when he bought it he changed the oil and his wife took it to be serviced once, where naturally they changed the oil. He swears up and down that's the only times the oil was ever changed.

I had a teacher in highschool who also claimed to only change his oil every 100k miles. Ran Mobil 1 synthetic and his little escort wagon rolled over the 300k mark when I was a senior. Of course this guy did commute 50 miles each way everyday so 99.9% of his miles were highway and he drove pretty slow. He also was adding a qt every month or so by the time I graduated but the car was going fine.

While I'll concede its possible to achieve such feats, I would never go that far myself. I think its all about finding a happy medium you are comfortable with and your car can agree with (not sieze up anyway).

This has really turned into a long and interesting discussion. There really is a wide and varied view on this oil change debate, but I think most of us probably fall somwhere in the middle. The 3k oil change will never become obsolete until all the Autozones in the world stop jamming it down all of our thoats.

[redyaris]

If by some magic all vehicles could not be started without the driver answering a skill testing question found in the owners manual, 90% of all vehicals would never leave the home driveway or parking lot. Frank, me and a few others would have the roads to ourselves.

[justjohn]

1. Go to - Bob is the Oil Guy
2. Read through "motor oil university"
3. ????
4. Profit!

Since I know even in this crowd most of you are too lazy to actually do that, here are some key points:

*Oil does loose effectiveness over time. However, synthetic has the potential to last very long.*
*Never store oil in cold conditions.*
*Synthetic is significantly better in almost every regard, and WAY better in cold conditions.*
*First number in oil refers to "cold" thickness, second number refers to operating temp thickness. Since most wear occurs when the engine is cold, and you can never have an oil that's thin enough at low temperature, 0W30 is always a better choice than 10W30. They perform identically at operating temp, but the 0W30 provides better protection during warmup, where it's most important.*

My takeaway as far as frequency of changes was that synthetic can go a long time as long as your filter is working properly, but should be changed more frequently in cold climates. I have cold winters, plan on changing twice a year with 0W30 synthetic as long as my filter seems to be working well. (Switched from Fram to Purolator after hearing some horror stories about fram. Purolator was still dirt cheap at Farm and Fleet)

[Frank Lee]

Bob is the oil guy... the place is full of recreational oil changers and there is as much B.S. floating around there as anywhere online.

The manufacturers have done more testing and development on this than ANYONE. I do not need a PhD in oilology; all I need to do is look in the Manual.

Yes I did look at the "university"- "can't store oil cold"- give me a break. Cold as in where it is in the crankcase all winter? In the past I'd contacted several oil mfgs and my inquiry was shelf life and storage. They said that as long as the container isn't sitting open, shelf life is indefinite. That is why you will not find a "best when used by" date on them. It's not a jug of milk for god's sake.

[redyaris]

If you consult the owners manual of some Ford pickup trucks you will not find a recomendation for regular scheduled oil/filter changes. What you will find is instructions to change oil/filter when the dash board display tells you to.

[user removed]

LOL, in WW2 the Japanese subs would run the oil in Burma from the oil well through a filter and into their tanks. I guess it had a shelf life measured in millions of years and still worked fine as a fuel. That's a quote from the Japanese captain of the I 15, the sub that sank the Indianapolis.

Ran my CB 350 for 100 miles on the oil that was changed in 1983, then changed it. Uses none and stays clean up to the several hundred miles I have accumulated.

Heck I have a hard enough time telling the oil I take out from the oil I use to replace it. It will cost me about $440 per 100K for oil changes. I call that cheap insurance.

regards
Mech

[Frank Lee]

11 years ago I bought my '59 Bel Air which had been parked since '68. I checked the dipstick and that oil was as honey-colored as new, with no sign of moisture. So I ran it. When I finally did change it out I had the opportunity to look in the oil filter canister (GREAT for seeing how much sediment there is vs spin-ons) and there really wasn't much. If I wouldn't have already bought a replacement element I could have easily put the old one back in. Anyway, the engine still runs great with zero sign of any lubrication or lubrication related issues. Same goes for the a/t- I asked the local trans shop about flushing and they said noooo, the old whale oil based a/t fluids were really good so if it looks good and works good, leave it. It does and so I have. I did flush and replace the coolant and brake fluid though- brake fluid is known to take on moisture over time, especially in the old stuff like the '59 that has a master cylinder cap vented to the atmosphere, unlike the newer stuff with the sealed bellows under the cap.

Mech's story about the Honda cycle reminds me of my Honda Silverwing which I've owned since '85; back when I listened to some ridiculous recommended changing schedule I noticed that the expensive special motorcycle oil I was draining out was just as honey colored and clean looking as the stuff I was pouring in. I think that was the "Ah Ha" moment where I decided you can't just go by what the herd does.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by valvoline

Does motor oil have an expiration date? How long is it generally good for?

Valvoline motor oil does not have a documented expiration date. Under optimal conditions, the product is stable for an extended period of time and can be used as long as the American Petroleum Institute (API) rating on the label continues to meet or exceed the requirements listed in your owner's manual. If the rating is still current, shake the container before use to blend any additives that may have settled.

Originally Posted by mobil

...Additionally, we recommend that if consumers drive routinely in severe conditions that they follow the oil change interval recommended in their owner's manual for severe conditions. We define "severe conditions" as:

racing or commercial applications;
frequent towing or hauling;
extremely dusty or dirty conditions; or
excessive idling.

^Some advice straight from oil refiners.

[justjohn]

"Called Mobil today and asked what the shelf life was. He told me that the oil in their original containers can last up to 5 years assuming it's in a controlled environment, ie no sudden temperature changes."

Also direct from the manufacturer. And here is a controlled study result which (though rather vague) is enough to convince me that storing conventional oil cold is a bad idea. Need more info on synthetic.

"Regarding cool whether gel formation, a small except from SAE j300 1999:
4. Because engine pumping, cranking and starting are all important at low temperatures the selection of an oil for winter operation should consider both the viscosity required for oil flow as well as cranking and starting, at the lowest expected ambient temperature.
Pumping viscosity is a measure of an oils ability to flow...during the initial stages of operation. Test in ASTM D 4684. ....samples are tested after a slow cool cycle. This cycle has predicted as failures several SAE 10W-30 and 10W-40 oils which are known to have suffered pumping failures in the field after short-term (2 days or less) cooling. These field failures are believed to be the result of the oil forming gel structures that result in excessive yield stress and viscosity of the engine oil...
A.2.1...After preliminary warming, the sample is subjected to a controlled temperature/time cycle over 5 1/2 to 7 days. The cycle reproduces ...instability or reversion which has occurred during storage of oils in moderately cold cyclic conditions. Recent work shows relevance to engine oil pumpability failure. Oils exhibiting pour reversion have solids resulting from wax gel formation, at temperatures significantly higher than their ASTM D 97 pour points.
Extracted, from ASTM D 4485-03 Standard Specification for Performance of Engine Oils, copyright ASTM International, 100 Barr Harbor Drive, Wets Conshohocken, PA 19428, USA."

[Frank Lee]

Huh. So not only does it depend on who you talk to out in general, it depends on who you talk to in the industry.

"Sudden temp changes" would be bringing it inside from outside, or vice versa. It wouldn't be sitting on a shelf in the garage. IIRC their concern was condensation; no mention was made of waxes.

"Regarding cool whether gel formation, a small except from SAE j300 1999:
4. Because engine pumping, cranking and starting are all important at low temperatures the selection of an oil for winter operation should consider both the viscosity required for oil flow as well as cranking and starting, at the lowest expected ambient temperature.
Pumping viscosity is a measure of an oils ability to flow...during the initial stages of operation. Test in ASTM D 4684. ....samples are tested after a slow cool cycle. This cycle has predicted as failures several SAE 10W-30 and 10W-40 oils which are known to have suffered pumping failures in the field after short-term (2 days or less) cooling. These field failures are believed to be the result of the oil forming gel structures that result in excessive yield stress and viscosity of the engine oil...

Translation: engines need oil thinner than 10W-x when it gets cold enough. That is why we have 5W and 0W.

A.2.1...After preliminary warming, the sample is subjected to a controlled temperature/time cycle over 5 1/2 to 7 days. The cycle reproduces ...instability or reversion which has occurred during storage of oils in moderately cold cyclic conditions. Recent work shows relevance to engine oil pumpability failure. Oils exhibiting pour reversion have solids resulting from wax gel formation, at temperatures significantly higher than their ASTM D 97 pour points.

Translation: A highly redacted beginning of a description of a test regimen with too much deleted for the remainder to be useful.

Geez, try to find something online that isn't this^. It ain't there!