opinions in smart meters

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by t vago

Message from the electric company: "Sure. We'll just replace all of the existing stupid meters at everyones' houses with new-fangled costly smart meters. We'll also install costly monitoring equipment, and train our employees how to use it. We'll eat all of the cost in labor and equipment, too... And we have this bridge in New York we'd like to sell you!"

The extra cost of installing the more sophisticated meter is offset by not having to send someone onto your property to locate a meter and hopefully read it accurately. It's further offset by not having to build as many power plants due to the reduced peak demands.

I just wish my house could get one of these smart meters and then integrate the readings for gas and water into it as well. No sense sending 3 different people out to my house every month when 1 meter can report it all, tier my service rates, and give a detailed hourly report of my usage that is viewable online... if only the future were here now.

EDIT: I believe people are confusing smart meters with smart grid. A smart meter merely reports live data, a smart grid may have the ability to switch off individual appliances, and this is done at the appliance level and not the meter level.

[Ryland]

My water meter is now read by remote, it's only read 4 times a year instead of 12 times a year but the cost to have someone sent in to my house to swap out the new water meter, the cost of the water meter and the operating cost of it was going to have a pay back of less then 5 years from the savings of having someone go from house to house to read the mechanical meter, so if an electric meter is being read 3 times as often and I've seen then swap out electric meters a hand full of times, it's a big plug on the back, open up the meter box and yank the meter out of the socket, when you do this the power shuts off, this is the common way to shut off power to a house that didn't pay it's bill as well, plug your new meter in and your smart meter is installed, much quicker then going in to someones house to swap out a water meter and if my city found the pay back on electronically read water meters to be a savings at 4 readings per year I can only imagine how it would have changed at 12 readings per year.
The old meters were a big ball of clock work, not cheap to build either and you pay for them.
I'm not sure about everyone else, but after my smart meter went in I noticed my rates went down by a fraction of a cent per kwh, because as a public service provider that you don't have a choice over service rates have to reflect real cost of operations.

[t vago]

You can call your electric utility, and get them to install a smart meter for you.

I don't have numbers for the amount of plants being built, so I can't really address that "concern." However, I do know that there were two states where the power company was just going to mass convert all of the existing stupid meters to smart meters. Customers would see an extra $5/month or so charge on their electric bill. The attorney general of CT (one of the states) went ahead and told the electric company to back off and do a more incremental approach.

In Italy, where I lived for 3.5 years, they do have 100% smart meters. However, they also have really expensive electric rates. The smart meters there can do all sorts of wondrous things, like change the billing plan per customer, and auto-shut off from the central station. I'd just love it if, God forbid, there were a glitch in my paying the monthly bill, and the electric company decided to just shut off my power while the glitch was being worked out.

I say again - y'all can keep these smart meters. I'll stick with my stupid meter.

[NachtRitter]

Power company can turn off your power even if you have a dumb meter. Since they have to come out to read the dumb meter anyway, it's not that much additional effort. Plus it could be more of a pain to get it turned back on.

Not sure how it is out there, but here PG&E has to give notice that it is going to turn off the power... so me missing a payment by 2 days or 10 days or whatever isn't enough... they have to send me a past due notice, stating that if the payment isn't received by x date then they will turn off power on y date. No difference if it is a smart meter or a dumb meter in that case. If they turn off power without doing the notice, they open themselves up for a lawsuit.

[redorchestra]

Originally Posted by t vago

Message from the electric company: "Sure. We'll just replace all of the existing stupid meters at everyones' houses with new-fangled costly smart meters. We'll also install costly monitoring equipment, and train our employees how to use it. We'll eat all of the cost in labor and equipment, too... And we have this bridge in New York we'd like to sell you!"

instead we will pay our CEO a 100 million dollar bonus and give all of our share holders their 15% dividends and ask the Canadian gov. for a tax break and a 0% interest loan to build new wind infrastructure so we can produce power cheaper but charge the users more.

me

govermnt

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by t vago

Customers would see an extra $5/month or so charge on their electric bill.

Average electric bill in the US is around $100 per month so a $5 increase to pay for a new meter is only a 5% increase and it's much cheaper then paying for a new power plant to be built.

In Italy, where I lived for 3.5 years, they do have 100% smart meters. However, they also have really expensive electric rates. The smart meters there can do all sorts of wondrous things, like change the billing plan per customer, and auto-shut off from the central station. I'd just love it if, God forbid, there were a glitch in my paying the monthly bill, and the electric company decided to just shut off my power while the glitch was being worked out.

So while you were in Italy you had them shut your power off a lot by mistake? The US is controlled so much by lawsuits that you are still going to be more likely to have your power go out because the grid is over loaded then because of a computer glitch, that is if the smart meters could turn the power off, a feature that would be a huge added cost to each meter and a feature that at least in the US is not built in to the meters, you still have to send someone out to your house and pull the plug, something that the power company is going to notice happen, my parents have solar and wind power and use the grid as back up only, when they first got a smart meter they were using more electricity then they were producing so they were hooked up to the grid using a small amount of grid power, then they disconnected and the power company noticed, so they sent someone out and swapped out the meter thinking it was a dud and a while later they noticed that their house was again not using any electricity for a few days so they sent someone out again to make sure that nothing was wrong because it's really hard to stop using electricity all together for days at a time, so while it's odd for them to be able to keep an eye on your usage and notice that something is not right, it also warns them when something has gone wrong before you even call to say that something has gone wrong.

When we are better informed we an make better choices and I don't understand the argument for being less informed!

[t vago]

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

Power company can turn off your power even if you have a dumb meter. Since they have to come out to read the dumb meter anyway, it's not that much additional effort. Plus it could be more of a pain to get it turned back on.

But with a smart meter, the power company can type a few key commands from the comfort of their service center. Or, even better yet, the power company can have a daemon that monitors the account information on their server, and have the daemon programatically send a shut-off command. Great.

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

If they turn off power without doing the notice, they open themselves up for a lawsuit.

Ever hear of the term "it's easier to forgive than to ask permission?"

[t vago]

Originally Posted by Ryland

Average electric bill in the US is around $100 per month so a $5 increase to pay for a new meter is only a 5% increase and it's much cheaper then paying for a new power plant to be built.

I must be doing well below the average, then. Even during the hot summer we had last year, I paid at most $80. My average is more like $40. A $5 increase there is somewhat more than 5%, I think.

In any case, how does raising the cost of the electric bill justify installing smart meters? Especially as the consumer would have to pay even more out of their own pocket in order to buy the necessary consumer equipment needed to let the consumer take advantage of the wonders of being able to monitor their own electricity usage?

Originally Posted by Ryland

So while you were in Italy you had them shut your power off a lot by mistake?

I experienced, on average, about one outage every 2 weeks directly due to that damned smart meter feeding my apartment. Amazing experience, that. My neighbors would still have power, yet mine would go out, and repeated calls to their call center would be met with "sorry, but it must be your fault" even after electricians were brought in by my landlord to inspect my apartment for electrical faults.

Of course, being an American living in Italy, I did consume more power than the average Italian, I suppose. I suppose it served me right for insisting that I have an Euro-spec refrigerator to store milk and eggs and bread and things that I had cooked.

Originally Posted by Ryland

...my parents have solar and wind power and use the grid as back up only, when they first got a smart meter they were using more electricity then they were producing so they were hooked up to the grid using a small amount of grid power...

...Hold on a second, here...

Let's take that "small amount of grid power," shall we? How much power do you think the smart meter there consumes? 30 W? Seems reasonable, right?

Now, let's multiply that by around 500K homes. Suddenly, that's an extra 15 megawatts that need to be supplied by the electric company.

Of course, the traditional stupid meter may have consumed more while measuring a running refrigerator AND a running A/C unit AND an operating electric oven AND a running clothes dryer AND an operating water heater, but so what? The traditional stupid meter consumes next to nothing at low loads (like at night). These new-fangled smart meters consume a constant amount of power, even with "sleep mode" or anything else you care to mention. That's more power that has to be generated by the electric company. That's more emissions going into the air.

Originally Posted by Ryland

When we are better informed we an make better choices and I don't understand the argument for being less informed!

Let me Google that for you: Home Electricity Monitors

As you can see, they cost much less than $500, and they allow you to "be informed."

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by redorchestra

instead we will pay our CEO a 100 million dollar bonus and give all of our share holders their 15% dividends and ask the Canadian gov. for a tax break and a 0% interest loan to build new wind infrastructure so we can produce power cheaper but charge the users more.

me

govermnt

I thought Canada does everything right. That's what Michael Moore has been telling me.

Originally Posted by Ryland

Average electric bill in the US is around $100 per month so a $5 increase to pay for a new meter is only a 5% increase and it's much cheaper then paying for a new power plant to be built...

When we are better informed we an make better choices and I don't understand the argument for being less informed!

If smart meters save money in the long run, then any percent increase is a crime. It's that kind of thinking; that the tax is just a little bit more, or it's just a little bit of freedom you are giving up, or just a small rate increase, that builds up over time and then we end up with enormous bureaucracy, taxes, costs, and loss of liberty.

I hate to say it, but at this point I would vote for any presidential candidate that promised to do absolutely nothing during their term. I just can't see either Dems or Repubs doing anything to increase liberty, or decrease bureaucracy and special interest projects.

You are quite right about information making for better informed people. This is the age of information. People have no chance of making intelligent decisions when they don't have good information. Now, I fully expect many people will still make terrible decisions once they have access to information, but at least it puts the responsibility back on them for that decision.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by t vago

Ever hear of the term "it's easier to forgive than to ask permission?"

"Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission"

"I once prayed for a bicycle, but it never came. So, I stole a bicycle and prayed for forgiveness".

Originally Posted by t vago

Let's take that "small amount of grid power," shall we? How much power do you think the smart meter there consumes? 30 W? Seems reasonable, right?

30W does not seem reasonable to me. Where did you get that number? I would expect somewhere closer to 1W, or not much more than a mechanical meter.