Parents just bought 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid... against my advice. Hmm.

[vskid3]

Originally Posted by Cobb

I thought the prius had a limp mode?

I'm pretty sure the Prius and every other eCVT car is dead if the HV battery dies/is removed. The tranny basically runs off the HV battery. It does make me hope that my HV battery doesn't die on a road trip and force me to have to go to the dealer to have it replaced. Maybe I'll have to get a few more power supplies and keep them in the trunk so I can make a grid charger in a few hours if necessary...

[MetroMPG]

So I drove the car again this weekend. That's four times now. (Yes, I'm making up reasons to borrow it because it's fun figuring it out. )

It did a pack recalibration again. Counting? Four drives, two recal's. There seems to be very little usable capacity before it goes into either forced charging mode or into a recalibration.

[Cobb]

You wont trip the IMA light til its down to .65 amp hours or 10% of its original capacity.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by Cobb

You wont trip the IMA light til its down to .65 amp hours or 10% of its original capacity.

That bites.

I hadn't driven the car since my last report, but was curious to try it on a highway run. I borrowed it this week for a 400 km (~240 mi) round trip to Montreal.

The route was about 75% freeway at the 100 km/h (59 mph) limit, 20% on scenic routes around 80-85 km/h (~50-55 mph), and 5% city driving.

4.7 L/100 km = 50 mpg US = 60 mpg Imperial.

Not horrible, but not super impressive either. (Reminder: EPA rated at 40 city / 45 hwy / 42 combined)

And no recals.

I'd like to take it for a speed vs MPG run sometime and log that info.

[MetroMPG]

Best MPG I've seen so far in a round trip with the Civic so far is 4.1 L/100 km = ~57 mpg US.

That's just basic ecodriving, cruising at the posted limits on secondary highways (70-80 km/h = ~45 - 50 mph) and maximizing engine-off "glides" (if you can call them that in this car) towards turns, slowdowns & stops.

[MetroMPG]

Civic update!

1) Winter MPG complaint

I thought it was funny earlier in the winter that my dad commented he wasn't getting the fuel economy he was used to seeing during the summer & fall. I asked him "when was the last time you remember the engine Auto Stop feature working?" Aha. So I got to explain that issue, plus other mpg-wrecking effects of cold weather. It apparently just resumed Auto Stopping within the last week (starting to warm up outside).

2) Constant pack "recals"

I've driven the car a few times in the past week, and it has done a pack recal (recalibration, involving forced charging to reset the battery state of charge gauge) literally every single time. Somewhat annoying. In the Insight world, very frequent recals were considered a sign the pack was on its way out.

Remember, this Civic is already on its second pack.

Aside from that, Dad has put about 20k km on the car since he got it without any problems.

3) I would not buy one of these.

Mostly I don't like the inconsistent way the programming of the hybrid system affects the driving experience.

A) Brake feel changes drastically (and sometimes suddenly, in the middle of braking) depending on whether it adds regen or not. It never seems to regen on the first stop after a cold start.

B) Worst CVT I've driven. Many gearheads hate the "motorboating" feel of CVT's. I don't really mind that -- it's many other things: it has an annoying "rubber band" feel under light/moderate acceleration from a stop, where it seems to gently surge/relax/surge/relax while building speed. Also, it's a little bit clunky when engaging from a complete stop. And sometimes the CVT will "creep" the car (as expected) when you release the brakes from a stop; other times it won't move until you give it a little gas. Generally unrefined.

C) Power output is inconsistently mapped to pedal position. The rate of acceleration you get at, say, 50% throttle varies wildly depending on state of charge and especially on whether it's doing a "pack recal" (forced charging), which it does A LOT. Annoying.

Once, I pulled out from a stop into traffic and it offered ZERO assist (It was maybe the second stop from a cold start -- I assume the pack was deemed to be too cold). The unexpected lack of power was alarming. I literally had to floor it. Can't remember the last time I've ever had to floor any car in normal driving.

Because it's unpredictable and inconsistent, this Civic is annoying to drive in ways my 1st gen Insight never was. That car was a treat to drive -- every mile behind the wheel was enjoyable.

D) IMA hybrids don't glide anywhere near as well as Toyotas & Fords.

The lack of a proper, automated, engine-off "neutral" glide is somewhat annoying. Optimized one pedal P&G capability is a treat this car doesn't offer.

Toyota does automatic transmission hybrids better -- and they seem to have integrated the various hybrid functions to offer a more predictable, consistent driving experience. (It's just too bad they don't have Honda's chassis & steering.)

So, I have to change the title of this thread: after driving this car in a wider variety of conditions, I would now say, "I don't like it."

[RedDevil]

Couple of thoughts.

My dad test drove a couple of Honda Jazz Hybrids lately, one was unpleasant to drive because of braking / CVT engagement while the others weren't.
So it may be a one-off.
(My dad did buy a Jazz Hybrid btw. - and likes it a lot)

There is a relearning procedure that should fix uneven braking, something like letting it decelerate on its own from 30 mph to walking pace without touching the pedals.
Haven't got any proof of that though.

Having the CVT oil changed seems to help, would not wait with that unless it has been done recently.

My brake response consistency improved on having extra brake pad return springs on the front disk brakes.

Overall, my car drives way nicer on a high SOC than on a low one. I'd love to boost it with a parallell pack
If you have battery trouble that will affect the driveavbility negatively.

If it works the same as on my Insight, then AutoStop will work when cold when you switch the ventilation off (with the OFF button) prior to coming to a stop, preferably when you are still moving at least 15 mph.
Once stopped you can switch the ventilaton on again, it will remain in AutoStop for a while.

It will tend to use AutoStop too when the ventilation is in Auto mode; the more you change the settings, the less it will use AutoStop.

I can recommend using thin oil (Honda Green Oil) for the winter period.
I use it since may last year; did not really notice any change during summer, but my winter economy is much better than last winter even thogh this winter was somewhat less mild.
Right now my 90 days (winter) average is even better than my all time average...!

[MetroMPG]

Keep in mind the temperature differences here vs. NL. We routinely saw -20C and colder, which affects the IMA battery and stop/start more.

My dad experienced the car's conventional 12v ICE starter multiple times this winter, because the computer deemed it too cold to draw power from the IMA pack to spin the motor/generator.

[RedDevil]

Booh, that's cold... we've seen minus 8 at lowest this winter; had to scrape some ice even last week, but always close to 0°C.

Green Oil would make an even bigger difference at -20°C.
I measure my fuel use over the first 10 km from a cold start and saw up to 300 cc 'over target' last year at the few frosty mornings.
This year nothing below 200 cc 'over'...
I guess it takes about a third of the cold start penalty away.

I've had only one cold induced 12V start; at -14°C two years ago. It being that cold is really exceptional here.
I did not test whether AutoStop worked with ventilation OFF then - wasn't into that at the time.
Engine coolant temp needs to be 48°C or higher anyway. The blue light goes off at 51°C, so it is possible to have AutoStop while having the Cold Engine indication on - just.

[MetroMPG]

Another update about my parents' Civic Hybrid.

Last time I mentioned it was recalibrating every time I drove it -- I took a gentle 100 km highwy trip with my parents since then, and it did 6 recals on the journey! So in the interim, I prepared my dad for the likelihood that replacement battery pack #2 was probably on its way out.

Last week, the car lit the check engine light. He took it in to the dealer who reported code P0A7F on the bill (no charge). They "reprogrammed" the computer, reset the CEL and said everything tested A-OK. I thought, possibly this car was missed when Honda issued an IMA code update that was meant to prolong IMA battery life?

But a little research indicates P0A7F is a Honda-specific code:

this engine fault code is the golden key that is necessary to get honda to replace the battery - Source

Honda is replacing my Battery free of charge!!!!! - Source

P0A7F One of the blocks in the battery pack has deteriorated: its dynamic resistance is too high (1) [...] it is a valid code and is even in the Honda Service Manual. It is an IMA DTC code for the condition of the battery - Source

I told my dad I was skeptical the reprogram would fix the problem, but I'd take it for a drive and see if it was still doing recals.

Sure enough, it started to recal within a couple of blocks, and within 5 minutes both the CEL and IMA lights came lit up. Interestingly, all the IMA hybrid functions seemed to keep working -- assist, regen & auto-stop.

So... I made another appointement at the dealer (for tomorrow) and will report back.