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Old 07-23-2010, 09:42 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
According to the rules, that energy is free. If you want to pedal it, that energy is free too.
So why don't all of the competition vehicles have a set of pedals? It's cheap enough to implement, right?

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Old 07-23-2010, 10:02 PM   #112 (permalink)
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The Tango and the Spira are out of the X-Prize. Neither one made the 100MPGe, and the Tango died on the *last* *lap* of the Range Test today...

To (sorta') make up for it, the Li-ion guys towed it to about 50' shy of the finish line, and it was able to eek across the finish line under it's own power. The video cameras were rolling and there were a bunch of people there to cheer!

Bittersweet, to be sure.

Zap has provide a succinct update:

Quote:
ZAP Alias Electric Car onto the Final Consumer Reports dynamic safety events Monday at #PIAXP with 121.8 MPGe
I do not know if the MPGe on the Edison2 telemetry is accurate, or what. The weight of the fuel left in the tank will be the final arbiter.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:05 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I'm reposting my comment from ABG, on a thread about Edison2 using ice to cool the passenger cabins:

Here's another angle that I have not seen mentioned yet: it would be best for efficiency if a car was designed to try and avoid the need for A/C altogether, I think? Thinks like thermal insulation, vigorous passive ventilation, low-e coating on the windows, mesh seats (which weigh less and take less space as well) to let the air circulate *all* around the passengers, and passive evaporative cooling (of water, not ice) -- would go a very long way to solving this, without "costing" much efficiency.

After that, if more cooling is needed, then how about regenerative cooling, that would only run the A/C when slowing the vehicle down, or at least not when accelerating or climbing a hill.

...or, dare I say it, we learn to accept a little sweat? We are talking about a car, after all, that is a tool to transport us over great distances with very little effort from us, so if circumstances are such that we get a little hotter than we'd like, we sweat; just like our bodies are evolved to do!
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:23 PM   #114 (permalink)
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...that would only run the A/C when slowing the vehicle down, or at least not when accelerating or climbing a hill.
...back in the early 1970's, I recall an aftermarket "add-on" switch (from Echlin?) that plugged in-line to the A/C-clutch, which disconnected the A/C compressor when the manifold vacuum dropped below some point--the idea was to cut-out the A/C during acceleration and heavy-load conditions.
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:11 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Neil -

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
...

...or, dare I say it, we learn to accept a little sweat? We are talking about a car, after all, that is a tool to transport us over great distances with very little effort from us, so if circumstances are such that we get a little hotter than we'd like, we sweat; just like our bodies are evolved to do!
While I could put up with it, I don't think I'd like to get to work and be (too) stinky. Also, my parents have reached an age where *not* having A/C in their car has limited their mobility to do things like see the doctor (in the summer).

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Old 07-24-2010, 07:54 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Here's Oliver Kuttner's post on Facebook:

Quote:
Here are the official results following the EPA combined test cycle (134 miles):
Car #95: 109 mpge a good run with about 130 mpge highway.
Car #98: 101 mpge with windy and very hot conditions.
Car #97: 95 mpge with windy and very hot conditions and a traffic situation where our driver was forced to go into boost to stay ...out of the time penalty window while adhering to strict PIAXP rules. That is the car that already did 101.4 in knock out and it is about 5 mpge better now because of careful emissions mapping improvement. These numbers are after all penalties.

Because the cars are so young we are still learning hard lessons. PIAXP staff discovered that we were loosing fuel to evaporation through the charcoal canister. After careful tests it turned out that because our fuel tank is race specific... and situated next to the engine. Essentially we are cooking the E85 alcohol based fuel and are loosing between 1.5% and 3% of our fuel through evaporation. This hurt us so far (I.E. the actual numbers are better by that amount) but now we correct it and it will benefit us during the Argonne Lab sequence. This discovery is a tribute to the very careful way PIAXP conducts this with good people. We are finding that many discoveries are made some subtle and some obvious (I can not believe we missed this). These cars are moving the art of measurement into a new realm. When you get to the edge everything gets more critical. For example the hereto not considered impact of the laser probe on the back of an automobile in coast down tests usually has little impact on a car due to its mass and dirty air in the tail section. In or case the attachment of the laser probe will add about 13% to the aerodynamic drag...

There are many lessons to be learned.
All the ICEs are out except ours. No plug in hybrid broke the 100 mpge number and there are no production based cars left in the competition. Proof positive that it can not be done unless there is a complete departure from the ordinary.

The two production based cars the AMP Sky and the Tata could go 90 miles at 45 mph but could not do 100 at 55 mph. Tata withdrew with "charger difficulties" but looking at thier radio communications I suspect that their hot rod could not do it...

Actually AMP did the 100 miles but when assessed a 1 lap penalty for going over interios temperature limit (not running the AC) that put them over the top, they could not do the last lap. to me a tribute for their technology as they may well have the best electric drive in a production based car to date...
I suspect that a Nissan Leaf or Tesla Sedan would have struggled here...
The x prize is showing clearly that there are no 300 mpge electric cars... It shows that production based cars can not do it... It shows that the "zero pollution" statement is an advertising statement not reality based for most applications.

it also shows that there is a good reason to develop electric cars and that they have real merit in some applications...

On Tuesday in a small Michigan town with fewer than 1000 people watching will be a historic motor race. The largest purse in history will be decided in a few hours of racing between very few participants... 2 cars (our #97 against our #98) must go 200 miles one will get 5 million if it does not break down (sounds like the year 1901), There will be a race between 2 motorcycles and one car (Edison2 #95) for 2.5 million dollars. It will be over in less than 1.5 hours...

The big race will be between six 2 seat prototypes (Finland, Germany and USA are represented) for 2.5 million dollars. Untried cars will be at the start... Anybody could win and it is for another 2.5 million. Lessons learned from this will influence the way millions of people are gong to live in the future... It has been a good week.

I think fewer than 1000 people watched at kitty Hawk on a certain day in history... That is the curse of the true departure from the normal.
In yesterday' s email I got a form letter response from a large oil company stating that their sponsorship budget is eaten up by their multi million dollar effort in a certain racing series... Obviously these people do not connect the BP disaster with anything that may influence them My application was a long time ago...

Also yesterday I got congratulations from two members of the board at two different very large corporations. I also had a visit from two people who want to drive technology and are interested in working with Edison2 in the future. Some people are watching. We know Edison2 has a bright future after the X Prize....

Regards Oliver
Also a more recent post:

Quote:
Our complements and thanks to PIAXP staff. They are very precise and found that we were loosing fuel to evaporation through very precise measurements between sessions. That was an important thing we had overlooked which hurt us. The tech team has some world class consultants in its ranks. In this competition for millions it is good to have smart people as everything is subject to being "off the scales" as we are departing from the ordinary and sometimes find out the unexpected, to our surprise....
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Old 07-24-2010, 08:00 PM   #117 (permalink)
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How did Edison2 #97 only make 95 MPGe and not get eliminated?
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Old 07-24-2010, 08:06 PM   #118 (permalink)
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They do not say, precisely. Implicitly, they seem to be saying that since that #97 car got 101....MPGe in the KO Round *OR* they are allowing for the evaporated alcohol; due to the fuel cell being in the same enclosure, so close to the engine and exhaust system?

Obviously, they will need to clarify this?
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Old 07-24-2010, 08:08 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I almost forgot! Here's the Final Results PDF from the X-Prize:

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org...k1_Results.pdf
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:04 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
...back in the early 1970's, I recall an aftermarket "add-on" switch (from Echlin?) that plugged in-line to the A/C-clutch, which disconnected the A/C compressor when the manifold vacuum dropped below some point--the idea was to cut-out the A/C during acceleration and heavy-load conditions.
That's a cool idea. I'm doing that manually on my old subaru.

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