Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-12-2010, 09:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,585 Times in 1,553 Posts
Electric water pump effect on warm up times

I've seen it mentioned several times now that electric water pumps reduce warm up time. I think I asked this question in another thread somewhere else and never really got a good answer.

Can anyone explain in detail how an electric water pump can reduce warm up time?

__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-12-2010, 09:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mechman600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 1,228

Fusion - '16 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
Thanks: 190
Thanked 275 Times in 168 Posts
I will argue that an electric water pump will NOT reduce warm up time. If your thermostat is working correctly, your coolant should circulate only in your engine. Stirring a pot of water on your stove will not make it heat up slower. Without coolant flow (aka electric water pump turned off), you will create hot spots in your engine which is not good. The only advantage will be an increase in efficiency by not having to spin a pump and move a bunch of water. If you can run an electric pump though a resistor to severely slow it down during warm up, this could be beneficial. But stopping the pump altogether? Eep...I would be scared of that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 10:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Independence, KY
Posts: 603

Blue Meanie - '02 Volkswagon Golf TDI
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 48.52 mpg (US)

Wife's car - '05 WV Passat TDI

Rudy - '94 Chevy C2500
Thanks: 89
Thanked 47 Times in 44 Posts
I agree with the above statement the only way it could help is by flowing slower when the temp is low but if it only has one speed it will make no difference, I guess if it flows less that stock overall it could do that too.
__________________
I move at the speed of awesome.


"It's not rocket surgery!" -MetroMPG
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 11:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
eco....something or other
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colfax, WI
Posts: 719

wood hauler - '91 Ford F-250
Team Pontiac
90 day: 18.97 mpg (US)

Rav - '06 Toyota Rav4 Base
90 day: 26.52 mpg (US)
Thanks: 39
Thanked 61 Times in 46 Posts
I would be hesitant to use an electric water pump. Electric is not as efficient as direct drive. If the motor burns out, you are stuck. Me tinks de ol fashun wai is bet.
__________________



1991 F-250:
4.9L, Mazda 5 speed, 4.10 10.25" rear
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 12:23 PM   #5 (permalink)
dcb
needs more cowbell
 
dcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ÿ
Posts: 5,038

pimp mobile - '81 suzuki gs 250 t
90 day: 96.29 mpg (US)

schnitzel - '01 Volkswagen Golf TDI
90 day: 53.56 mpg (US)
Thanks: 158
Thanked 269 Times in 212 Posts
there are some opportunities to save a bit of energy with an electric water pump.

if it is brushless then it can be made very reliable.

you can delete the thermostat with the right control scheme, thermostat is basically a large pumping loss most of the time. The mechanical pump has to work against the thermostat most of the time. An electric pump only has to pump hard enough to keep the temperature correct.

install a more efficient / smart alternator and the electric options get more efficient overall. Direct drive vs belt driven would also help.

options like adding a thermos bottle to store hot coolant for later get much simpler with an electric pump.
__________________
WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 12:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,585 Times in 1,553 Posts
I agree there is probably room to improve efficiency with an electric pump.

However, will it help with warm up?

So far I would agree with mechman. You can stir a heating pot faster or slower and it still warms up in the same amount of time.
__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 01:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,927
Thanks: 877
Thanked 2,024 Times in 1,304 Posts
With a bypass hose and properly operating thermostat, you will get a thermosiphon effect with warming coolant.

Early model T Fords used a thermosiphon system with no water pump.

I think you would get a better efficiency return if you regulated the temperature of the coolant entering the engine after leaving the radiator.

The temperature difference between coolant exiting at a 180 degree thermostat and that same coolant entering the engine after going through the radiator can be over 120 degrees.

A combination of a bypass and radiator exit thermostat that keep incoming coolant at the temperature difference experienced in the summertime would (in my opinion) significantly improve overall economy.

Combine a WAI and WCI (warm coolant entry) and you could maintain most of your summertime mileage into some fairly colder temperatures.

Remember the old Packards with the adjustable radiator fins.

regards
Mech
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 02:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcb View Post
you can delete the thermostat with the right control scheme, thermostat is basically a large pumping loss most of the time. The mechanical pump has to work against the thermostat most of the time. An electric pump only has to pump hard enough to keep the temperature correct.

install a more efficient / smart alternator and the electric options get more efficient overall. Direct drive vs belt driven would also help.

options like adding a thermos bottle to store hot coolant for later get much simpler with an electric pump.
I dunno... pumps and fans draw the most power when they are moving the most fluid. Yes, it seems counterintuitive. Try running a box fan, then throw something against it that blocks the air- it speeds up! If it speeds up, the motor is seeing less load. Do the same thing with a shop vac. Or a sump pump. They all react the same way. So if there's a restriction in an auto cooling system, it should serve to reduce load.

I've long wanted direct drive for accessories though. And a thermos bottle.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 09:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
mechman600's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 1,228

Fusion - '16 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
Thanks: 190
Thanked 275 Times in 168 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcb View Post
thermostat is basically a large pumping loss most of the time. The mechanical pump has to work against the thermostat most of the time. An electric pump only has to pump hard enough to keep the temperature correct
Nope. When the thermostat is closed, a bypass is open to allow full coolant flow back to the water pump inlet. It takes absolutely no more power to pump through the bypass when the engine is cold than it does to pump through the rad when it is hot. The thermostat is two valves: rad closed/open and bypass open/closed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 09:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: belgium, wi
Posts: 262

Bus - '94 Ford School Bus huge

Stupid - '01 Chevy Blazer LS
90 day: 21.38 mpg (US)

hawk - '00 Honda Superhawk
Thanks: 2
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Electric does work. It is efficient, and uses less power than a mechanical pump. Many cars cannot eliminate the mech. pump because it is driven in the serp. belt system or the timing belt system. Building an idle within these systems would be difficult. Also, some pumps use the block as part of the back of the pump, this provides some difficulties as well. as for speed, for $200 you can buy a pwm to control the speed. I would not use a resistor.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electric Cars Push Japan Engine Parts Makers to Crisis Mode tjts1 The Lounge 14 12-23-2012 12:47 PM
Can I use a GENERATOR to power an Electric car directly? Nerys Fossil Fuel Free 128 10-01-2012 01:24 AM
Testing: WAI's effect on engine warm up Daox EcoModding Central 24 01-13-2011 09:41 PM
Greetings from Maryland! thedarave Introductions 7 10-14-2009 10:47 PM
Run Your Car on Water!!! (emulsion that is) Coyote X EcoModding Central 17 04-01-2009 01:20 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com