Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > EcoModding Central
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2008, 08:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NorCal
Posts: 451
Thanks: 1
Thanked 40 Times in 26 Posts
Project 60/60 Xfi Metro and Singh grooves

Maybe it's already been discussed and I missed it...

anyone following this?

nice detailed pictures of a 3 cylinder Geo metro Xfi head modification

SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Geo Metro XFI, '92 - 1 groove

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 09-03-2008, 11:31 PM   #2 (permalink)
Hi-Tech Redneck
 
Johnny Mullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ashtabula, Ohio
Posts: 1,436
Thanks: 6
Thanked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Johnny Mullet Send a message via MSN to Johnny Mullet
I am so doing that on my next project or rebuild.
__________________

GeoMetroforum.com - got mpg?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 10:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 69
Thanks: 18
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
What do these grooves do to cause these gains in power?
Don't the grooves add to combustion chamber area and cause more heat to be rejected into the coolant?
Finally, can the grooves be used on a diesel?
Ray Mac
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 11:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
OfficeLinebacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 113
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
WTH? From my limited understanding of combustion dynamics and cylinder head design, those grooves provide two bad things:

a) a quench spot
and
b) sharp edges which are great sites for unintended flame kernels, ie detonation.

The only positive I can think of are that they increase turbulence/swirl in the combustion chamber, and I am curious to know the explanation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2008, 11:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
OfficeLinebacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 113
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
OK I just read the front page about "Squish and Quench" and it sounds like pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo to me.

It seems that if this concept worked, we'd see spark plugs with these grooves in them.

Hey, next time someone does a tune-up, take a Dremel and cut a groove in the first 1/4" of spark plug threads!

Not to say it can't be true, but I can't help but think of the old "if it were a simple solution to increase MPG, wouldn't the major manufacturers be doing it already?"

Are there any racing series where this is done?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2008, 11:36 AM   #6 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Daox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Germantown, WI
Posts: 11,203

CM400E - '81 Honda CM400E
90 day: 51.49 mpg (US)

Daox's Grey Prius - '04 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 49.53 mpg (US)

Daox's Insight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 64.33 mpg (US)

Swarthy - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage DE
Mitsubishi
90 day: 56.69 mpg (US)

Daox's Volt - '13 Chevrolet Volt
Thanks: 2,501
Thanked 2,587 Times in 1,554 Posts
I think the grooves are a great idea. I have heard very good things about them from very knowledgable engine builders. I can't answer your question about why OEMs haven't caught on. It does say he has patented it though.
__________________
Current project: A better alternator delete
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2008, 01:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Funny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 409

Eco-Fit - '13 Honda Fit Base
90 day: 37.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 30
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
It's difficult to make a sand cast head with intricate details like these grooves in it, and labor to make each groove by hand before installation isn't justified by the ability to charge for the "Now with Singh-grooves!" head. That's my theory. Think how aerodynamically dirty stock intakes/heads/exhausts are, and then how much "cleaner" aftermarket units are. That sums it up. Cost to benefit ratio is too small.
__________________
American by right
Ecomodder by choice
Hypermiler by necessity

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2008, 03:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NorCal
Posts: 451
Thanks: 1
Thanked 40 Times in 26 Posts
I discovered that site a couple years ago, but just saw some new results on a Metro that caught my eye.

If you poke around the website for a hour or so, here's a lot of interesting observations the inventor has made. I like the guy's style, he doesn't pretend to know why it works, admits his data is far less than scientific (he's working in a little home workshop in India afterall).

I have an extra head I'd like to cut and groove, just for giggles. But I won't be doing any A-B-A testing for everyone, I don't have the time for that. It sure would make an interesting engine dyno experiement where a guy could isolate the variables and take some reasonably reliable hard data.

What I've read sound encouraging, sounds more believable since the guy isn't trying to sell anything, yet seems to share everything. something to ponder
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 12:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: MidEast Atlantic
Posts: 57
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's an example of a guy that did it wrong and had to grind em out
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 02:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
aerohead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sanger,Texas,U.S.A.
Posts: 16,225
Thanks: 24,372
Thanked 7,357 Times in 4,757 Posts
grooves

Am I to understand that automakers are going to re-introduce the flat-head engine? Mr.Singh' groovy technology appears to show great efficiency in this type of engine technology,and perhaps he may see a rebirth on the horizon.-----------------------Also,I find it remarkable to use both turbulent and laminar in the same context.---------------------And no doubt, physicists worldwide,will marvel at Mr.Singh's ability to disassociate oxygen and nitrogen inside a combustion chamber.No mean feat!------------------------- Addititionally,since vapor- fuel demonstrates no fuel economy benefit over vapor/droplet fuel,it's surprising that a potentially more turbulent mixture would provide greater (over-unity?) energy release.-----------------------Charge turbulence occurs in the inlet tract,a function of Reynold's number and velocity and begins to subside by the time of BDC.----------------------------"Swirl" can occur inside the combustion chamber,a function of port,combustion chamber, and piston top design.Swirl usually leads to charge stratification and heterogeneous pockets of lean and rich mixture.When anticipated and designed around,this stratification can be exploited for certain purposes with up to three spark plugs/cylinder.-------------------------------- Torque is a function of Brake Mean Effective Pressure and has to do with optimum charging efficiency which occurs at approximately one-half peak horsepower rpm.The charge itself is the mass of fuel and air delivered to the cylinder. -------------------------------------- Some independent laboratory experiments would help us to better evaluate any inherent benefits associated with the Singh grooves.I remain very skeptical.

__________________
Photobucket album: http://s1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj622/aerohead2/
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Singh Grooves an0nymous DIY / How-to 28 07-28-2012 12:08 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com