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Old 02-19-2016, 12:45 AM   #21 (permalink)
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The statement has to come with caveats.

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Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post
Past performance is not a good indicator of future performance ...
There are no chemistries possible to allow batteries to match hydrogen's energy density. I don't care how much you spend on battery research, percentage gains is all that you will find. And believe me when I say a lot of money and mind power is going into improvements of battery chemistries. It is a limit that is dictated by the laws of nature.

Common micro-pore carbon sponge can already store hydrogen energy at densities greater than current lithium batteries. Metal hydrides extend that greatly. Complex metal hydrides trump lithium's power density by three. These are compounds already in existence today. What will tomorrow bring?

Cella Energy | Hydrogen Storage Technology & Power Systems

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Old 02-19-2016, 07:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Those Cella hydrogen storage beads are a one time use media that must be sent back and recycled after every use. Out of the question for a car.
.
Hydrogen/ oxygen reaction releases 140,000 joules per gram of hydrogen. This is only .0388 kW. A 50kWh battery would match 1288.7 g of hydrogen.
.
The best carbon nano storage systems are 700 psi at liquid nitrogen temps and only hold 40g/ Liter so a 32 Liter tank would compare for energy storage but a battery EV is 90% efficient from battery to wheels and fuel cells are only 50% so 60 liters for the hydrogen tank is getting pretty large.
.
Research « ALL-CRAFT
.
The best high temp hydrolysis manufacturing of hydrogen is only 60% efficient so round trip efficieny of hydrogen for grid storage is also a very poor option compared to batteries.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-t...e_electrolysis
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:08 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Capacity is but one aspect.
Usability and availability are just as important.

There is one breakthrough development in battery technology that can make a big difference in public acceptance: fast recharging.
If you can recharge the batteries in a few minutes the absolute range becomes less important.
You'd still want a range fit for your commute, so you can manage by just charging at home, but the occasional long trip would not take (much) more time or planning than it would in a gas powered car.

Also the electric charging network is growing fast.
Over here it is hard to find a parking spot that is further than half a mile away from the nearest public charging point. I pass several of them on my way to work just driving through my home town - there are many more charging points than gas stations.

Fast charging and the ability to charge wherever you park changes everything.
It is a matter of time before EVs become attractive enough to go mainstream.

We are losing some gas stations because they are too close to houses etc.
The nearest gas station is limited in its opening times and under constant threat of being closed permanently. LPG is banned from many stations as being too dangerous.
LPG powered cars are banned from some parking garages etc.
LPG is on a steady decline.
I would expect hydrogen would run into some of the same problems as LPG, and a new one: as it is lighter than air a hydrogen leak would spread under the ceiling of tunnels and garages, where the lighting units are.

Electricity is here and growing fast.
Hydrogen is almost nowhere yet and taking baby steps.
You could not drive the Rasa anywhere today nor in the nearby future; probably never.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:41 AM   #24 (permalink)
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If you cant get fuel for it then its just going to be an expensive road side decoration.
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Old 02-19-2016, 01:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Toyota is stopping all sales of their FCEV car, the Mirai - because of the near total lack of working hydrogen fueling stations. And when the total energy cycle is considered, FCEV's will always be a fraction as efficient as a BEV; no matter where the hydrogen comes from.

Back on topic, sorta - here is the original Riversimple car:



It is not nearly as good as the Rasa.
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Old 02-19-2016, 02:03 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Any statement that has hydrogen and fossil fuel free in the same context should be in the unicorn corral.
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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This is why this whole discussion is really about applied solutions.

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Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Toyota is stopping all sales of their FCEV car, the Mirai - because of the near total lack of working hydrogen fueling stations. And when the total energy cycle is considered, FCEV's will always be a fraction as efficient as a BEV; no matter where the hydrogen comes from.

Back on topic, sorta - here is the original Riversimple car:



It is not nearly as good as the Rasa.
As a city car, the battery electric vehicle makes the most sense. But, for longer range and heavy payload vehicles, batteries become too bulky and expensive.

Most of the research in batteries is to improve charging rates so that the relatively short range of the BEV can be bridged over. The energy density of battery chemistry is already near it's limits. Cost, longevity and charging performance is the thrust of research.

But, not all chargers are created equal. A common 110v outlet will not allow you to do a 5 minute charge on a Tesla sized battery pack. This cuts down your charging choices greatly. Even 220v home chargers won't do this. Most public chargers still can't do this. However, the only real need for a rapid 5 minute charger is along the highway/freeway corridors.

So, it looks like battery solutions are the it!

Except in long haul, heavy payloads. The size and cost of a needed battery pack displaces your net vehicle weight limiting your profitability.

We always think of well to wheel efficiency because our primary power sources are largely dirty or limited as is the case with renewable energies. But if our primary power sources were cheap and clean and our renewable energy sources were plentiful, well to wheel efficiency becomes less of an issue. Using this power is all we need to think about. If batteries are not going to work for heavy, long haul situations, look for other solutions. And one of them could be a hydrogen solution. You can fuel up at the freight centers and along the traffic corridors. Well to wheel efficiency is not even the question with the right primary sources. All an operator needs to see is the costs.
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
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And that would reflect badly on the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Any statement that has hydrogen and fossil fuel free in the same context should be in the unicorn corral.
I can think of numerous solutions that would result in fossil fuel free hydrogen.

Some exist now, others have near future possibilities while others are a real future probability.
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:20 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Thanks for the good discussion. Most everyone has contributed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
Capacity is but one aspect.
Usability and availability are just as important.

There is one breakthrough development in battery technology that can make a big difference in public acceptance: fast recharging.
If you can recharge the batteries in a few minutes the absolute range becomes less important.
You'd still want a range fit for your commute, so you can manage by just charging at home, but the occasional long trip would not take (much) more time or planning than it would in a gas powered car.

Also the electric charging network is growing fast.
Over here it is hard to find a parking spot that is further than half a mile away from the nearest public charging point. I pass several of them on my way to work just driving through my home town - there are many more charging points than gas stations.

Fast charging and the ability to charge wherever you park changes everything.
It is a matter of time before EVs become attractive enough to go mainstream.

We are losing some gas stations because they are too close to houses etc.
The nearest gas station is limited in its opening times and under constant threat of being closed permanently. LPG is banned from many stations as being too dangerous.
LPG powered cars are banned from some parking garages etc.
LPG is on a steady decline.
I would expect hydrogen would run into some of the same problems as LPG, and a new one: as it is lighter than air a hydrogen leak would spread under the ceiling of tunnels and garages, where the lighting units are.

Electricity is here and growing fast.
Hydrogen is almost nowhere yet and taking baby steps.
You could not drive the Rasa anywhere today nor in the nearby future; probably never.
As I remarked to Niel Blanchard in another post, it is about applying solutions. The Rasa may not become a market success. BEV's have an advantage in the people mover market and that advantage is the charging infrastructure. However, it embodies technologies that could be applied in other markets.
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I've already remarked on other threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Those Cella hydrogen storage beads are a one time use media that must be sent back and recycled after every use. Out of the question for a car.[/url]
I will comment on the Cella beads.

The beads are a primary source. But so is gasoline.

From what I can glean from the company website, it is a product that can be bulk produced and recycled with ease as it is simply a polymerized complex hydride. Their current objective is the Adblue market. They must have a delivery system cheap enough to compete with common urea. If this is the case, I see no reason they could not produce cheaply enough.

Bulk beads could then be delivered to a fueling station. The beads are poured into a vehicle. The used beads are vacuumed out to be recycled. The vehicle is on it's way in minutes. The same tanker truck that delivered fresh beads returns to the factory/recycling center.

This is a game changer for hydrogen refueling.

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