Rasa, a hydrogen-powered city car for the masses

[sendler]

I found a good study on a 20 unit hydrogen bus fleet that operated at Whistler Mountain, Canada. This was the largest single location fleet of hydrogen busses in the world and the results were actually pretty good. The energy efficiency of the fuel cell was acceptable, surpassing the equivalent energy of the diesel counterparts by 5%.
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http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60603.pdf
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[Stubby79]

Originally Posted by sendler

I found a good study on a 20 unit hydrogen bus fleet that operated at Whistler Mountain, Canada. This was the largest single location fleet of hydrogen busses in the world and the results were actually pretty good. The energy efficiency of the fuel cell was acceptable, surpassing the equivalent energy of the diesel counterparts by 5%.
.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60603.pdf
.

Been a while since I last saw one of those buses...maybe they all moved to whistler.

[sheepdog 44]

This is absolutely incredible, and the first thing to really impress me in a while. Will look up more info later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utmkddBFUg0

[iveyjh]

Originally Posted by sheepdog 44

This is absolutely incredible, and the first thing to really impress me in a while. Will look up more info later.

WOW!!! Awesome.

[NeilBlanchard]

I really like the new car, but I still think hydrogen is not the way to go. The aero is sweet.

Though the trunk is just 6 cu ft.

[rmay635703]

The car could go 3x as far on CNG for 1/10 the price.

Or could be an awesome EV, too bad we just have to drive a unicorn.

Might as well drive it as a compressed air car.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The car could go 3x as far on CNG for 1/10 the price.

Or could be an awesome EV, too bad we just have to drive a unicorn.

Might as well drive it as a compressed air car.

This car is hardly a unicorn. Impractical for some and not well placed market wise, for others. But it can and does do what they say it does - move 2 people at reasonable speeds up to 300 miles.

They are a small company and they have decided not to go head to head with the existing giants in the industry by bypassing commuter electric vehicles and their associated limitations of range due to cost. Leafs and iMevs and eFiats struggle in that market and it's limitations.

The only battery cars that can travel 200-300 miles are the much higher priced Teslas.

Using CNG would require considerable outlay in engine certification for emission reasons and a small company may see fit to bypass that all together. Fuel cells may not be the answer, but they think so. It allows them marketing uniqueness.

The long range compressed air cars I have seen use CNG heating of the motor air to increase range into that 200-300 mile span without a huge air tank. Not a big problem but now you are "duel fueling" at your stop.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

This car is hardly a unicorn. Impractical for some and not well placed market wise, for others. But it can and does do what they say it does - move 2 people at reasonable speeds up to 300 miles.

I like the car, just hate the powertrain.

A drivable unicorn is still a unicorn.

I can drive a unicorn compressed air car for a lower cost per mile than hydrogen.

I guess in my mind its fuel source isn't practical, for me there are exactly zero hydrogen stations here and likely won't be for decades

Now since CNG and hydrogen use the same systems and components, why don't they make the car dual fuel?

It would require nothing additional since a hydrogen motor Is nothing more than an oversized ICE with injection?

[RustyLugNut]

I've been accused of being unkind in rebuttal, but sometimes there is no way around it. But, the bottom line here is that hydrogen is just the ENERGY CARRIER. The same way electricity is. They both transfer the energy of the primary power source. With that in mind you can see that the Rasa is both brilliant and flawed at the same time, but only in the aspect of the energy carrier. I have mentioned in other posts that fossil fuels are essentially energy carriers of the sun but for the narrow timeline that is humanities endeavors we can consider it as a primary energy source as we can solar derived energies such as wind and weather.

This misunderstanding runs deep in many global energy discussions on this and other forums.

Originally Posted by rmay635703

I like the car, just hate the powertrain.

I think you mean, "I hate hydrogen". The drive train is brilliant.

Originally Posted by rmay635703

A drivable unicorn is still a unicorn.

By that argument my waste vegetable oil powered cars and trucks are unicorn simply because you don't have the same sources of the fuel as I have. I have run those vehicles for over a decade with hundreds of thousands of miles use. I guess they aren't practical or real.

Originally Posted by rmay635703

I can drive a unicorn compressed air car for a lower cost per mile than hydrogen.

I'll take that bet any day.

Let's see you do your calculations and I'll do mine.

Let's make the base starting point a solar array that provides electricity to your charge point. Do your calculations from the wall plug to your vehicle wheels via air as your energy carrier. I'll do the same for hydrogen. The calculations will be only for the energy efficiency of transfer. Not material or build costs.

Originally Posted by rmay635703

I guess in my mind its fuel source isn't practical, for me there are exactly zero hydrogen stations here and likely won't be for decades

This is really the crux of the matter at hand but the same could be said for most any cutting edge power source or energy carrier - it's not practical until it is. I grew up helping my grandfather build things out in the jungle that surrounded our family farm. We used hand saws, hammers and augers to build fencing, sheds and bridges. Electricity would have been nice but none was available in the jungle or on the farm. Is this an extreme example? Yes it is. But hydrogen is an extreme example of an energy carrier that has not yet found it's place.

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Now since CNG and hydrogen use the same systems and components, why don't they make the car dual fuel?

It would require nothing additional since a hydrogen motor Is nothing more than an oversized ICE with injection?

The Rasa is fuel cell powered and thus, this discussion is oblique. However, if you watch the video and all that was said, it was emphasized that all components and technologies used were to be "off the shelf". Everything on the Rasa was maximized/minimized so that only an 8.5 Kw fuel cell output would be needed. I am quite sure the builders of the Rasa are familiar with Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC) but none are currently made in a practical size for the car mainly due to the minimum size needed to run the core at the relatively high temperatures SOFC currently need to run. In the next couple years SOFC catalytic chemistries will allow 500-600 Deg C making smaller fuel cell packs for applications such as these practical. A short time later and 350 Deg C packs will be common. This will allow the Rasa and other vehicles to leverage the CNG infrastructure as its fuel source. To be exact, most any hydrocarbon source, both gas and liquid, could be used. This is not unicorn stuff. I have seen the military prototypes under testing/development here in San Diego. These SOFC power packs will allow electrical production in battle field conditions with whatever fuel sources that can be scrounged up - NG, propane, gasoline, JP-8 or waste vegetable oil.

The Rasa can be MULTI-FUELED in the next coming years as tech grows.

Your air car will still be an air car.