Reducing weight

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I like the Pontiac's 8-lug finned aluminum drums better than Buick's that took standard wheels.

Even though trucks and buses don't tend to have finned drums, the wheel reminds me the setup I usually see on trucks and buses.

[freebeard]

Dayton heels

Dayton or Budd? The eternal question. |

Now, some old truckers out there will tell you that daytons are the only way to go. They claim that this wheel setup is better suited for trucks hauling heavy loads or working in tough conditions as they resists cracking around the bolt holes, a major weakness of Budd style wheels... Another potential of spoke wheels is the ability to seal out snow, ice or dirt from the brake drums. Some disadvantages, it requires more skill and time to mount a dayton style wheel correctly. Incorrect mounting results in a wobbly wheel and tire wear.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Mostly Budd nowadays. IIRC the last Brazilian trucks with Dayton wheels were some Chevrolets either from late-'80s or early-'90s, and many had been retrofitted with Budd wheels. It's not uncommon to see some old Chevy or Ford medium-duty truck with a rear axle easily identifiable as having been sourced from a wrecked Mercedes-Benz AGL, with the 3-point star on that cap at the rearmost part of the differential housing.

[Nathan jones]

Originally Posted by ps2fixer

They added a stupid roundabout in my area, it is a major state highway, instead of the few people getting on the express way having to slow down to turn onto the on ramps, now EVERYONE has to slow down even if there's no traffic. There's a place for roundabouts, but in that exact case it would have been far better to just add a turn lane to keep traffic flowing (no slow down for most drivers).

Same township made the 2 lane highway going out of town a 2 lane highway with a left turn lane for like 2 businesses in 2 miles, completely waste of money, and now no one can legally pass in that section. Some people go 45mph (speed limit in town), and it slows everyone down and no way to pass, of course for a short moment it's helping people get better mpg, but someone upset is known to get worst mpg and drive more aggressively. There was never a traffic problem heading out of town, I don't understand why they did it, the traffic light timing is more of a problem, but there's about 4 lights grouped right together and a timed where you have to be going the speed limit or faster to make them and the traffic in the area naturally goes around 35mph because of all the businesses and driveways in the area slows down the traffic.

Anyway, just wanted to point out, roundabouts are not a one fits all solution. Not every intersection in the usa has enough traffic to warrant the extra costs and a simple stop sign works just fine for low traffic areas, the usa is a massive area of land for the population, the only real traffic areas we have are primary in larger cities from what I've seen, that and road layout, like there's a large swamp in my area, so no road goes directly through, so have 3 or so turns to get to the other side of it.

I've had more people almost hit me in that roundabout than anywhere else from people coming off the express way. Never had a problem at all before the change. It's so tiny that semi's have to drive over the center and it's not exactly smooth for the cargo.

Here's an image of the setup. I guess google maps was drunk when they drew the road lines lol.





Depends on year, make, model, some vehicles used the parking brake as a way to adjust the rear brake drums up. I'm not sure which style my F250 is, it's a manual and the parking brake doesn't function. Seems like 99% of domestics the parking brake doesn't work in and 90% or so of toyota's it works fine.




You might be right on less self adjusting rear brakes for drum brakes. Disc naturally is self adjusting (always tight), so there is an advantage for disc in that area.

I've tested the parking brake on a lot of Toyota's, Camry, Corolla, Echo, Prius, Matrix, etc, up here in Michigan where road salt is a problem, roughly 90% of them work. The toyota pickups and 4runner is at 100% or near 100% for them not working. All are around 2000 and older besides the matrix and prius.

I'm sure the owner's manual gives more details on how the brakes should be adjusted if needed at all, but of course most people don't read the owner's manual. Too bad there wasn't a "what you need to know" section that covered things like that.



Anyway, for the thread topic. I think drum brakes are lighter than disc, the disc alone is about the weight of a drum, add the caliper and I think pure weight wise, the drum brakes would win. Spinning mass I suspect is real similar though.

That's not a small road junction. In towns, stopping every 50 yards. It was fine in the 50s when fuel oozed out of the garden but not now and there's not enough oil left to have a war over. Yes, groundbreakingly expensive but social and economic stability is worth more. Or bike, and local authorities would prefer that too

You are quite likely right about drum brakes though, the rotating would slightly be higher but unsprung maybe a lb less or more per axle

[freebeard]

I always thought 1940 International five-spoke wheels with chrome rims and sputtered aluminum finish on the hubs would look trick.

I guess both Dayton and Budd have those widow-maker split rims.

[freebeard]

Explain this one like I'm five:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oyFuKJpNj...s_4-17-171.jpg

The only possible use I can see for the second circle is circle-eight racing, but they screwed that pooch when they didn't put a cross-over in between.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Explain this one like I'm five:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oyFuKJpNj...s_4-17-171.jpg

The only possible use I can see for the second circle is circle-eight racing, but they screwed that pooch when they didn't put a cross-over in between.

If you managed to survive the first loop, you get second chance to not make it.

[ps2fixer]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Explain this one like I'm five:


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oyFuKJpNj...s_4-17-171.jpg

The only possible use I can see for the second circle is circle-eight racing, but they screwed that pooch when they didn't put a cross-over in between.

Maybe I'm biased, but a normal 2 lane road for both directions with express way style exits seems to make the most sense to me. The only issue is a bridge would be required which is expensive but about 100x less confusing to be a driver on the road.

Originally Posted by Nathan jones

That's not a small road junction. In towns, stopping every 50 yards. It was fine in the 50s when fuel oozed out of the garden but not now and there's not enough oil left to have a war over. Yes, groundbreakingly expensive but social and economic stability is worth more. Or bike, and local authorities would prefer that too

You are quite likely right about drum brakes though, the rotating would slightly be higher but unsprung maybe a lb less or more per axle

That junction is about 15 mins from the nearest city/town. There's a village about 2 miles south then 2 miles west though, and there's another major state highway about 8 miles south that is 2 lane on both sides with a left turn lane in the middle. It runs from the near by city to another city about 30 miles away.

I don't think a roundabout vs traffic lights or stop signs effects mpg of the average driver enough to do much for the average fuel usage. The USA was energy independent and a net exporter till our current administration shut down pipe lines and such. Trump actually mentioned if Biden got in gas prices would rise $5, 6, 7, 8 a gal and we are sitting around $5 for gas $6 for diesel. Prices at that time was around $2.50/gal in my area.

Can you clarify what the bike, and local authorities would prefer, the wording kind of seems a bit mixed up there. I doubt you mean wars would make bikers and local authorities happy. Was that in the context of more roundabouts or something? Bicyclists here have to be on the road and obey the same traffic laws as a car does. In some cities there are some dedicated bike lanes but it's not the norm.

Even in the middle of Detroit (or Chicago, Lansing, Flint, Saginaw, etc) I've never seen the traffic pattern setup where you had to stop for every intersection, normally there's traffic lights and a limited number of them so traffic can flow better. I hate driving in the city, but I've made it through Detroit stop and go traffic which extended all the way to the express way and I still got a good 40mpg with my corolla, but I was driving smart and for saving fuel. USA cities aren't like New York City, they have a very limited space with a massive population so they have major traffic issues, that's the exception not the rule. I'm sure the double (or more) roundabouts isn't the rule over there, but more the exception. We even have 2-3 roundabouts tied together in Michigan, super confusing to drive and and as an out of towner, it's extremely annoying to try to be in the correct lane to get where you want to go. Been in the wrong lane several times and got screwed over because I don't live in those areas and it seems like the signage is really terrible. Here's a vid I found trying to find a vid about the roundabout I was thinking of that's 2 or 3 roundabouts in one. Have to switch lanes quickly in it unless you want to miss the exit and I think the one side goes to the express way so you have to drive a mile + to get off legally to turn around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA3uof6b3_w

Here's one I've been in somewhat recently. I came from the south side going north. I've been though it enough to know I need the left lane, first time I came through I was in the right lane since I wasn't passing anyone. The satellite images shows the road design before the roundabout was installed. I don't recall going through that area before the roundabout so can't really comment if it was better or not before but it looks like the old layout if you was in the right lane, you never had to slow down, left lane shouldn't have to slow down except if there's a ton of traffic because there's a left turn lane. The other direction appeared to also have a right turn lane. As long as the road was marked clearly before you got to it, I think no roundabout would probably be better than with for that exact setup. Most traffic isn't existing the road and are just going straight through.




Anyway, kinda getting off topic lol.

I could be wrong, but I think most road bikes are also front disc brakes and rear drum, with the rear drums being steel lined aluminum. The old Honda 3 wheeler also used aluminum brake drums in the 80's. Some were finned, some weren't.

I think both designs have their own pros and cons. It seems like 4 wheel disc brakes act a bit differently from front disc rear drum setups. Pedal seems to sink farther before braking happens, at least for my Lexus LS400, but it has undersized brakes, and even with the upgraded brakes I put on it from a newer LS400, it's still a joke for brakes. My Prius stops way better than the LS400. I'd say the same for my F250 power stroke diesel, but Fords are known to have good brakes so not really fair.

[Nathan jones]

In the UK before a 12 o'clock exit is left lane and after 12 o'clock is right lane. In London it's pretty much every driver for himself. It's not so much off topic, road design and moving mass are connected

I meant pushbikes would be preferred to tearing up roads to reduce mean long term consumption

Aluminum steel lined drums sound awesome. A ring could be simply heat shrunk in. Unfortunately the Prius in the UK has discs all round

Hope to drill my rotors later this month

N.b A aluminum/zinc or magnesium mix with fins would be very efficient and last a lifetime

[ps2fixer]

The 12 o'clock rule is hard to follow when you're looking for a certain road and don't know what the clocking location is. The signs don't say road names until the exit. Also, what's the rule for roads directly at 12 o'clock? You have before and after, but not straight through.

Roundabouts are just a yield to traffic on the roundabout, but that concept doesn't seem to translate to people too well, at least in my area. It's getting a little better, but a lot of the time people will stop even when there's no traffic. In driver's ed we were taught a yield sign is like a rolling stop, you slow down check for traffic but a full stop isn't required, might be part of why people drive that way, that or they don't know what yield means because it's a pretty uncommon sign to see on the road here. When there's slip lanes and such on the roundabout, it can get even more confusing for out of town drivers.

I probably should mention, I'm not 100% against roundabouts, in some situations they can replace stop lights and do a good job, but the local roads in my areas, roundabouts were used instead of just adding a simple turn lane. It would have required making the bridge wider, or making the on/off ramps farther away from the bridge, so all options I'm sure were expensive to do. In higher traffic area's there's normally two on ramps you can turn onto, and depending on which direction you're going on the road, you use the on ramp that's to the right which generally has a dedicated turn lane. I'll grab some pics of the setup up town. There's one stop light that backs up fairly bad, but they have a million businesses along each side just up the road and a ton of top lights. They really needed like a service drive for all of the businesses, and keep the main road cleared up more so traffic can flow better.


Major road into the area that has all the businesses is north and south in the pic, the businesses are to the north. Express way is east and west, the lane going to the right is the on ramp for traffic heading north for east bound.



Here's a bit farther north on the other side of the bridge, there's a right turn lane for west bound traffic for traffic going north.

For traffic heading south, the lane closest to the express way is the westbound on ramp, the other is a different road. There's a dedicated right turn lane there.

Now for the traffic heading south but want to go eastbound is where things get weird, back at that traffic light that I mentioned backs up pretty bad, they have to take a right there and drive around a 1/2 mile for the on ramp. Being a local it's not bad, but I'm sure someone from out of the area would be nice and confused. It does have signs showing where to go though.



Here's kind of an overview of that area of town. To the right all of those businesses are on service drives, but I think there's too many spots to turn. There's a bunch of businesses on the left side that has their driveway right to the main road, lots of them are in horrible locations (right next to an intersection for example).

The service drive concept that I have in mind is more like a giant roundabout but 2 lane traffic.

The main road going north and south has a speed limit of 45mph, but most of the time the traffic only goes around 30-35mph and the lights aren't timed for that. There's also a ton of stop lights for each of the major drives on the right side, I think it's 4 north of the bridge, then the 1 south of the bridge. I suspect another way to go about it is make that whole town section a giant 2 lane roundabout. Traffing going to the right service drives in right lane, left side of the road would be left lane, but there's also a fair bit of traffic that are heading out of town. It would need right turn lanes on the round about so people don't have to slow down as much. There's a lot of people that nearly stop to make a turn in my area, there's also some people that like to make barn yard turns 1.5-2 lanes wide.







Here's my 2006 prius, it has drums in the back. You can see the Michigan cancer trying to take over (rust).





I also have a 2009 prius, also has drums in the back and it's a higher trim package (keyless entery and such). It's pretty rusty kind of hard to see it in the photo. I think the drums might be slightly bigger on the 2009 too.




My 2004 Toyota Matrix also has rear drum, it had real good brakes too like the prius. I think I'm pretty sold on keeping the Prius, big time with gas prices being up, so I should probably get the matrix cleaned up and ready to sell some time.



Those are the newest vehicles I have, I've always driven 90's era vehicles and a touch into the 2000's like 2000-2001 era. Cars are generally cheap, insurance cheap, features aren't overboard with the junk I don't want, and the models I go for are known to be reliable, and clearly I try to go for ones with better mpg abilities. I kind of miss my 97 corolla, but I was always wishing it was a hatch back since I used it about like a little truck.