Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[Nerys]

As already stated by others the metro is TBI the cherokee is the I6 MPFI

both vehicles run on E10 just fine but they hate it from an FE standpoint.

from a dollars per mile standpoint E0 is CHEAPER than E10 even after throwing away a full gallon of E10 to get E0 (its that massive a FE difference in BOTH vehicles!)

I just switched back to E10. 46mpg down from over 55mpg. Do the math.

I now have 5.7 gallons of REAL E0 ie not washed gas in the car (although I just towed a washing machine home on my little trailer with the metro! yes I have a trailer hitch on my metro)

I also brought home about 17 gallons of E0 and plan to bring home a lot more this coming week as I have to go up their again.

its $2.86 a gallon for the E0 up their and its $2.61 a gallon for E10 down here in Jersey (jersey is cheaper for gas) versus $2.85 a gallon for E10 outside philly for E10

its STILL cheaper to get the $2.86 a gallon E0 over the $2.61 a gallon E10 (and it might not be $2.61 anymore that was last week I will find out monday)

10 gallons of E10 costs me $26.10 in NJ $28.50 in PA

I can go 460-480 miles on that fuel.

10 gallons of E0 would cost me $28.60 and I would be able to go 580 miles or MORE on that.

100 miles further on the same amount of fuel (granted its a metro so huge difference)

Cost per mile I will use the cheaper NJ gas for the comparison.

5.4 cents per mile on E10
4.9 cents per mile on E0

I save half a cent every single mile on E0 even at the higher price.!

around here E85 is "more money" than Regular so I can never ever save anything using E85 except destroying my cars. NONE of my cars will safely run on E85 even the voyager which went from 28mpg on E0 to 19-20mpg on E10.

For the cherokee the cost is 20 gallons of fuel so $52.2 NJ and $57.2 E0 (PLEASE NOTE if E0 was available in NJ it would ALSO be $2.61)

E0 460miles 12.4 cents per mile
E10 340 miles 15.4 cents per mile

saving 3 cents a mile even at the higher price!

for the voyager

E0 560miles 10.2 cents per mile
E10 380miles 13.7 cents per mile

3.5 cents savings per mile on E0

[comptiger5000]

A carbed engine could be re-tuned to run well on Ethanol, although it wouldn't run well on gas after the tuning. TBI response would vary based on the system. Some would tolerate it better than others.

His Jeep would probably run on E85, but being that it's not tuned to take advantage of the high octane, or optimized to run E85 at stoich (ethanol stoich is different than gas stoich), it wouldn't make ideal power, and the gas mileage would suck.

[Nerys]

I just want the ethanol gone. It makes the gas more expensive I burn MORE of it making it even more expensive. It increases the cost of the food supply and it RUINS engine parts especially on older cars. I have 7 fuel pumps from 7 different cars (all of them killed their FP's after the switch to E10)

I don't want the crap. I just want gasoline until battery electrics eliminate the need for that too.

[ShadeTreeMech]

It's a shame that E85 is so much higher in your area. In my neck of the woods it's generally 25to 35 cents a gallon cheaper.

I don't mean disrespect, but can you prove or know where to prove ethanol causes problems for the engine? It's not lack of trust, but I just like to be able to cite references, and if ethanol is as bad as all that, i can still avoid putting it in my cars for the time being.

[Nerys]

Ok let me get this straight. lets use your most optimistic value.

35 cents cheaper.

gas here is $2.70 a gallon. so your E85 would be $2.35 a gallon

lets do a cost per mile using a my minivan since its good decent all around mpg's and lets assume it was DESIGNED to run E85 properly

Gasoline MPG is 28mpg

theoretical E85 mpg is 16.8 and this is being VERY generous

On gas its 9.6 cents per mile on E85 its 14 cents a mile

4.4 cents MORE every single mile you drive even at 35 cents less ?? explain that to me WHY would you want that?

this means E85 costs you MORE to drive. this means if you an AVERAGE driver going 12,000 miles a year E85 costs you $528 MORE every single year.

WHY in the world do you think this is a good thingk ShadeTreeMech?

just to break even your E85 would need to be $1.61 a gallon

Its not. anywhere. Ever.

YES ask any mechanic what too much ethanol would do to an old fuel pump and the plastic and rubber in older engines and the diagram's in old motors (such as tools and motorcycles and outboards)

ask any chemical engineer what ethanol will do to all the millions of FIBERGLASS tanks out their today and what that resulting mess will DO to your airplane or boat engine?

Ever wonder why all those gorgeous fiberglass cabin cruisers are on CL in the NE for cheap or free? go get an estimate on what it would cost to cut the top off a 30+ foot boat to replace the built in fiberglass tanks with metal tanks :-)

The last 3 fuel pumps I had to replace I tested the gas in the tank. It was more than 10% ethanol (ethanol is extremely hygroscopic it sucks in water like a super magnet so WATER damage is an issue too) 13-16%

Go ask ANY manufacturer or NON E85 designed vehicles what happens to your warranty if you put (no control by you mind you) over 10% ethanol in your car.

Instantly voids your warranty.

yeah its BAD stuff.

[ShadeTreeMech]

I respect your opinions, and wish to continue debating the issues. I rather enjoy it. But ad hominem attacks accomplish nothing.

The 16.5-17 mpg figure i quoted is the average of actual full tanks of E85 in my particular van. I typically get 20 to 21 mpg. My figures are not theoretical, as i haven't the ability to figure theory. They are MPG on two (or three?) seperate tanks purchased from K&G gas stations in 2 seperate states.

I don't have a fiberglass tank i fear, but an ABS tank. My fuel pump is still ok after 198,000 miles in the same vehicle. My motor is new, but it was replaced before my experiment with E85, and I reused the intake manifolds and fuel injection components from the original engine.

My vehicles are old. There is no warranty. And assuming the oxygen sensors are operating correctly, there is little difference between a flex fuel and a MPFI engine. The only problem I had was a cold start below 50 degrees F. But a bit of throttle application solved that until it was warmed up.

As far as the hygroscopic nature of ethanol, I figure it is an easy way to rid myself of the water that can condense inside my tank in the humid south. Saves me from dropping in some isopropyl or Heet.

I don't think ethanol is the answer to our problems. It may be a stop gap until better technologies emerge, but i doubt it.

I wish to quote something out of one of your posts on this thread

Quoted from Nerys
no offense taken. ALWAYS question data and results its the sign of a working brain :-) its also the sign of a working open mind not to automatically DISMISS data either without testing.

Why did I manage to profit (even if only by a couple miles on a full tank) by buying E85 I'm not sure. But I did on 2 occasions. And the engine still runs. I had to replace the fuel pressure regulator, but it's hard to say if it was fatigued by 190k miles or 2 tanks of alcoholic fuel.

I've reread some of this thread, and I pose a possible theory. You may be knocking out more than just the ethanol with your washing process. I cannot even guess what that might be, but it is a plausible theory.

I respect that you are deeper into ecomodding than am I. While I am intelligent, I have a lot to learn. Please refute me with facts and figures, not theory and questioning my sanity. I ask questions and post on the 10% of threads I might be able to contribute my 2 cents. I challenge you to simply ask yourself if you are basing your beliefs on facts or conjecture.

[ShadeTreeMech]

BTW I do appreciate you pointing out you've figured the cost per mile per fuel type. That's proof positive I cannot refute.

[Nerys]

attacks were unintended. I can seem to come off harsh. Mention when I do and ignore them please they are not intended.

Your car seems to be epa'd at 21mpg. What is the ORIGINAL epa highway for your car? (ie not the new adjusted epa highway figure but the original in 1997 highway figure) ie what was on your windshield when it was new in 1997

so you get 16mpg on E85? and 21mpg on E10? or E0?

I came up with the 16mpg by subtracting 40% from my van's normal 28mpg. (Someone here said its 35-40% less efficient to use E85) with newer cars seeing a 30% drop in FE on E85.

I am confused as to how your only seeing a 23.75% drop in FE even the straight math says that should not be possible?? unless the 21mpg is "new" epa measure then that explains it IE your 1997 EPA figures might be higher than 21mpg? (thats why I need to know that)

I am also confused as to what figures you are plugging in.

Using my gas price of $2.70 and your adjustment of 35 cents cheaper I come up with these numbers

at 21mpg and $2.70 you pay 12.8 cents per mile

at 16mpg 14.6 cents per mile at $2.35 a gallon ie nearly 2 full cents more per mile

even at 17mpg you would still be paying 13.8 cents per mile or a full penny more per mile on E85 at 35 cents cheaper and you yourself said its 25-35 cents cheaper.

so thats "best case" scenario. What am I missing?

assuming you get 17mpg and save a full 35 cents per gallon and assuming you gas is as cheap as NJ gas you would pay $120 MORE per year at 12,000 miles a year on E85 over E10/E0 (whatever your getting 21mpg on)

What did I miss?

[Nerys]

Facts or conjecture.

Conjecture off course. Thats why I am gathering data :-) Now that I have data I have Theory. Once I run more thorough testing on multiple vehicles THEN I will have facts.

Initial testing is pretty solid and conclusive. I was even shocked by the results and I WANTED results badly :-)

I have over 40 tanks of gas on this car (and I mean TANKS not 100mile or 50 mile fill ups but almost every one is 300 miles or more)

I have already put over 10,000 miles on this car and I have only had it for 5.5 months.

in that time UNTIL I put 8 gallons of washed ethanol free gas in the car I never got anywhere remotely close to 55mpg and I tried HARD. Even Engine off coasting engine off at all stops maximizing coasting engine off on hills and never going over 45mph I could only "just" eek out 50mpg from this car.

I maintained this higher fe 54-55 mpg even towing a trailer carrying 4 people and gear and going up to the mountains and back over 4 tanks of gas and when I put 10.75 gallons of E10 into the car my next tank was 46mpg and it was warmer out.

thats pretty darned conclusive and AWFUL close to "fact" but not quite yet :-) now I have real unwashed genuine E0 to run some tests on and I am getting more this coming week so I should be able to get a good 3 or 4 tanks on E0 and then go back to E10 and see what happens.

This tank is rubish. I am towing a 200 pound trailer over 250 miles with 100 pounds in gas cans and a 200 pound washing machine thats bigger than the car on it :-) (btw my FE is still excellent considering!!)

I bet even with all that I will STILL beat my E10 figures :-)

[Funny]

Originally Posted by ShadeTreeMech

I don't mean disrespect, but can you prove or know where to prove ethanol causes problems for the engine?

It doesn't show disrespect, it just shows you're trying to weed out any false information.
I have been following this thread with interest since it first started. The reason I was interested was the multitude of instances I have been witness to as a small engine mechanic (lawnmowers, snowthrowers, chainsaws and the like) on the side. All of the owner's manuals mention to get gasoline without ethanol where possible. ALL of them. Most of the small engine repairs I have made are fuel related, a high percentage of which are carburetors clogged with waterborne goo or fuel filters/gas tanks with water in them. This was not the case until the local government mandated ethanol in my area. Before then it was usually a spark plug or carbon deposit problem. So I would err on the side of Nerys in this arena. At least as far as the repairs are concerned.
Fuel pumps definitely do not like water. Because ethanol forms an azeotrope with water, there is NEVER (well, almost never - there is a form of super anhydrous ethanol that exists, but that immediately absorbs humidity out of the air.) What that means is that the ethanol is never without tag-along water, on the order of 4-5%. So when you are putting E10 into your tank, you are putting water into your tank also. Lets look at the math:
Assuming the Ethanol contains on average 4.5% H2O-
If you put E0 in your tank: H2O = 0 of total volume
If you put E10 into your tank: H2O = 0.45% of total volume
If you put E85 into your tank: H2O = 3.8% of total volume

The better choice if you were looking to dilute gasoline would be Methanol, It doesn't form an azeotrope with water and therefore comes in an anhydrous form relatively cheaply. Problem is you can't make it from corn... But that is another argument.
Rant Over.