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Old 06-27-2013, 11:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P-hack View Post
to support what the warp9 is capable of
You're working from the top down, thinking like a drag racer. That kind of mindset is the opposite of my goal.

I do not care what the WarP 9 is capable of. I do not intend to approach the edges of it's functional envelope. It's just what is already in the truck and it'll do. I'm not trying to turn tires into smoke.

This thread gives yo a headache because you're explaining things that don't belong in the thread... 140hp? 65mph? I didn't come up with those ideas. I'm sure you have a lot to offer, but you've gotta come down out of the clouds to do it.

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Old 06-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by camosoul View Post
We already know it takes about 30hp to roll an F-150 at 70mph. I want 50. That's 20mph less. 3x 7kw = ~28hp. The 420cc engine are really about 18 each. That's 54 ponies, and I won't even have to push them to 100% to do what I want. I'm not asking for half the speed. I'm asking for about 65%. So, I only need a little over half of the estimated power that I'd need at 70. Bu y that very, very rough estimation. 20HP, or 15KW should be enough. I'm packing a full 30% more just to let the gens run in a more comfortable range.

Does this goal assessment seem a little more rational?
Hi camosoul,
Your math is a little off. But I'm in complete agreement: if 45 is your top speed requirement, 20 hp is plenty.
I really like the idea of a serial hybrid pick-up. In my dream I have 120 vac available for all my tools, fridge, electronics, etc. And then I can drive it all home.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Lol, clearly we have a requirements issue here.

I was using the warp9 to define an upper limit since there wasn't much else to go on, and a "regular" ev truck as a reference.

I suggest you look through evalbum and find something that fits your performance needs and then use that to figure out how much power it takes.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Very cool project. Looking forward to see what happens.
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:06 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mort View Post
Your math is a little off. But I'm in complete agreement: if 45 is your top speed requirement, 20 hp is plenty.
I'm sure my math isn't perfect, I'm just estimating in my head to see if what I want to do fits into the laws of physics. I can get more precise if the question is answered in the affirmative:

"Is it sane and possible to shove an F-150 down the road at 55MPH with 21KW @ ~120v?"

Let me get my slightly less crude math on...

Assuming "~120v" is what I'll get when I rectify the gensets... 21,000w/120v = 175a / 3 = 58.333a per gen. Top and bottom of gen head winding are on 30a 120v breakers. So, that's 60A before they pop. Math says China Freight isn't lying. Math says that's sustainable 65+MPH power presuming 30HP = 70MPH. I can peak to 8.5KW each and probably break 75MPH for a short period, which I will never do. They run leisurely at 45 to 50MPH. Could even shut off a gen and go dual.

To say it another way. I can create 180 Battery Amps that aren't Battery Amps with the gens. This occurs at 120V, which is equivalent to 10 12v batteries or 24 6v batteries. If I add in a pack that can non-destructively provide double that capacity, I can burst 540a, which is probably more than I need.

Appears sane and possible. Can someone contradict me?

What battery can give me 360A at 120v? How do I balance the gens' output with it on draw and charge? I almost feel like a static of 9 batteries gives a proper output if rectification gives me 120v even. Charged flooded cells usually top off at 13.4ish, eh? Weird how this works out...

Can someone contradict me in a way other than "that's not LIFePo and A/C drive in a Miata so it's not leet enough to be allowed to exist, I hate it!"

What I need to see is; how fast do other vehicles go while pulling 180 battery amps? Or better; Hey, you! Yeah, you! The guy who already has a working electric car. How fast are you moving when you're done accelerating and have leveled off to a steady 180 battery amps?

I must consider that my CoDA is going to be a mess compared to other EVs. I'll probably be about 25% worse in the Drag department according to how this EV performed when it had batteries in it, compared to the same pack and controller in a smaller truck.

I must also consider that my Revs will be lower with skinny 35in tires. It may be the first EV with a useful 1st gear? :-p

Last edited by camosoul; 06-28-2013 at 02:18 AM..
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I can dig the 45 mph F150. I can dig the EV part. I can't imagine the buzz and inefficiency of 2 or 3 gensets on all the time. I'm not suggesting you kill yourself- that suggestion is usually reserved for me when I dare to suggest there is a human overpopulation situation. But you should think on this over a beer or 8.

P.S. I KNOW I've seen an S-10 or similar small truck converted to electric motor drive and there was a genset in the box. I even dimly think I recall the guy was a Canadian? IIRC his mpgs weren't all that astonishing. I even did a quick EM search but didn't find...
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:56 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
I can dig the 45 mph F150. I can dig the EV part. I can't imagine the buzz and inefficiency of 2 or 3 gensets on all the time. I'm not suggesting you kill yourself- that suggestion is usually reserved for me when I dare to suggest there is a human overpopulation situation. But you should think on this over a beer or 8.

P.S. I KNOW I've seen an S-10 or similar small truck converted to electric motor drive and there was a genset in the box. I even dimly think I recall the guy was a Canadian? IIRC his mpgs weren't all that astonishing. I even did a quick EM search but didn't find...
I've considered your point and it is very much valid. I want an exhaust system that it plugs into the same way as the truck.

I love slow-speed stationary engines, and the glorious mechanical sound of it can't be heard if the exhaust isn't quiet. It's the RPM, too...

The RPM isn't tied to holding a frequency, I'm rectifying it. I can drop the auto regulation for a servo stuck to a PICAXE monitoring throttle position and/or current draw. Joined with the exhaust it can plug into, I think I can reduce the horrible noise considerably.

I don't expect my MPGs to be even on par, but I might be surprised...
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Genset efficiency is CRITICAL to something like this being successfull.

My fathers Miles ZX40 kei van (which is electric and weighs 2400lbs) uses a whopping 75amps x 50 volts (on a bad day) to go 25mph

Slow-Turning 5 kW Yanmar Diesel Generator

Using THAT generator he would get 88mpg driving down the road off the genset.

Now compare that to the genset he actually owns

Amazon.com : Honeywell HW2000i 2, 100 Watt 125cc 4-Stroke Gas Powered Portable Inverter Generator (CARB Compliant) : Patio, Lawn & Garden

and you end up with about 25mpg.

If you go with his "old" generator it gets even worse (think low 20's) and this is on a van that with the big 660cc motor gets 25-40mpg stock anyway)

so be carefull, the generator must be very efficient or this simply won't work out very well.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Genset efficiency is CRITICAL to something like this being successfull.

My fathers Miles ZX40 kei van (which is electric and weighs 2400lbs) uses a whopping 75amps x 50 volts (on a bad day) to go 25mph

Slow-Turning 5 kW Yanmar Diesel Generator

Using THAT generator he would get 88mpg driving down the road off the genset.

Now compare that to the genset he actually owns

Amazon.com : Honeywell HW2000i 2, 100 Watt 125cc 4-Stroke Gas Powered Portable Inverter Generator (CARB Compliant) : Patio, Lawn & Garden

and you end up with about 25mpg.

If you go with his "old" generator it gets even worse (think low 20's) and this is on a van that with the big 660cc motor gets 25-40mpg stock anyway)

so be carefull, the generator must be very efficient or this simply won't work out very well.
You're absolutely right. I'm a huge fan of the slow-speed gen set. It's on my to-do list for off-grid stuff, after I finish building the shipping container house and workshop... Would love to find a DIY grid-tie inverter, but I doubt the guvthugs would allow it...

I've got some experience with the China Freight Generators. I wasn't expecting much out of them, but ended up being very impressed. It took almost a year for power to be installed at my place, and I ran off of one of them 8 to 12 hours a day for a year. It sipped fuel in spite of being a 3600rpm friction and noise machine. It still starts up on a single barely adequate pull of the cord. I gave it to my (very old) parents as a backup in case of a hurricane/power outage because I have that much confidence in it. As old immobile as they are, they can get this engine started without hurting themselves. I have total confidence in these generators.

But, your point is still well taken. They aren't really efficient compared to the ChangFa/Yanmar, and assorted knock-offs. I have only too much experience with Listeroids... ;-)

I will consider this project a success if I get 23mpg @ 55mph. I'm sure I can get quite a bit more at 45mph. The objective is, and I restate it again, to create a battery-ready electric drive-train, awaiting real batteries to be invented, and still be useful to me in the mean time. No matter how many times I say it, I just can't knock the "it has to be more efficient" fetish out of peoples' heads. Yes, I'd like that very much. But, until real batteries are invented, we're still just kidding ourselves about that, no mater how much money we blow on Lithiums. Lithium is the best thing going right now, but it costs too much, it still doesn't reach reasonable ranges or charge rates, and it's perceived green-ness is more than offset by the ecological nightmare of manufacture, logistics, and recycling consumption. They're actually worse than a gas car, you just don't have to look at it. It's not in your face so you pretend it isn't so... Flooded Pb/H2SO4 is greener, by far, tho sluggish and inefficient, as another respondent pointed out. But, there is a reason they're still used in off-grid applications for stationary energy storage. Every part of them can be re-used and re-cycled with virtually zero environmental impact int he associated processes. Plante Cells can be DIYed with next to no specialty tooling...

As I examine it fiscally, I may convince myself to go with a low AH Pb/H2SO4 bank and use just one gen to boost when I draw discharge depth to a point I don't like. It is absolutely un-useful to me if I can't go 50 miles with it. Lets call this Plan B. I need a way to monitor my DoD anyway.

Last edited by camosoul; 06-28-2013 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
...
Slow-Turning 5 kW Yanmar Diesel Generator

Using THAT generator he would get 88mpg driving down the road off the genset.
Lest anyone accuse me of being a hotrodder or that MY head is the one in the clouds, much of my distaste for this is because it is %100 series, downsizing the engine doesn't change that.

That generator has a 10hp (7.46kw) engine on it to make 5kw electrical.

So if, for example, that engine were directly clutched to an appropriate sprocket and chain to a wheel, the same vehicle could cruise at like 160mpg all day vs 88.

assuming %85 motor/controller efficiency, which is generous, and the %67 mechanical->electrical conversion of the genset (given).

Clutch in a motor in parallel, do some more maths and research bro, I'm out.

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