The Slow Death of the Internal Combustion Engine

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

How much are you willing to pay for that extra range? Nissan is charging $6500 to add 22 kWh and 75 miles range to the Leaf. Tesla charges $10K to add 85 miles of range to the Model S.

Not to mention a pickup gets about half the range per kWh as a Tesla, so you can expect the markup on the range to impact the pocket book even more severely.

[Taylor95]

I'm thinking I would pay from 40-50k for something like that. That is low, but if the claims that the battery can last 500k miles are true, then getting one used would be great.

Range really does matter. If I'm driving 600 miles, I wouldn't want to stop more than twice to charge. At that point I would rather have a diesel.

If Tesla can make a semi that can tow for 500 miles on a charge, then making a pickup with at least 300 useable miles towing shouldn't be a problem for Tesla.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

I'm thinking I would pay from 40-50k for something like that. That is low, but if the claims that the battery can last 500k miles are true, then getting one used would be great.

For the entire vehicle or $50K to boost the mileage from 300 miles to 500 miles? Like redpoint5 said, a 500 mile pickup is likely a $100,000 vehicle.

Originally Posted by Taylor95

If Tesla can make a semi that can tow for 500 miles on a charge, then making a pickup with at least 300 useable miles towing shouldn't be a problem for Tesla.

If is the key word there. No one outside of Tesla has confirmed Tesla's claim that their semi will go 500 miles, at highway speeds, loaded to 80,000 lbs. Tesla officially pushed out start of production on the Semi.

[Taylor95]

50k for the entire vehicle. If it's initial cost is 100k, it will take up to 5 years to depreciate to 50k at current rates. That's really not bad at all.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

Range really does matter. If I'm driving 600 miles, I wouldn't want to stop more than twice to charge. At that point I would rather have a diesel.

If Tesla can make a semi that can tow for 500 miles on a charge, then making a pickup with at least 300 useable miles towing shouldn't be a problem for Tesla.

A 250 mile range truck could go 600 miles on 2 stops to charge because you start the trip fully charged.

Really though, 600 mile trips hauling an RV is not what EV pickups are for. EV pickups are for contractors and people wanting the utility/style of a pickup for mostly local driving. In that case, 250 miles of range is plenty, and I consider that to be near to the sweet spot as far as affordability and utility are concerned.

The problem isn't being able to make a vehicle capable of x number of miles, its making it affordable. Tesla could make a 1000 mile vehicle, but if only 3 people want to purchase it, that doesn't justify development costs to manufacture.

[Taylor95]

The advertised range is for 100% of the battery capacity, right? I believe you're supposed to charge the battery before it gets below 30% and up to 90%. So that leaves 60% of useable range, correct? So a 500 mile range truck should really only be driven up to 300 miles before it should be charged. For local driving, even half of that would be great. For people who drive more, it is definitely something to consider. That is why I wouldn't want a truck with less than 500 miles of advertised range.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

The advertised range is for 100% of the battery capacity, right? I believe you're supposed to charge the battery before it gets below 30% and up to 90%.

You can use as much of the battery as you'd like until it stops moving; it's about your own level of comfort and leaving enough charge to make it to the charger without sweating. The lower you run it, the longer the car can charge at full charging speeds before it begins to taper.

Typically you stop charging around 80% as the tapering charging speed makes it no longer worth waiting around for that last bit of charge.

If chargers were ideally located, you could leave a 25 mile buffer (10% of 250 mile range) when you arrive at the charger. The real world is that the placement of the chargers dictates when you'll stop to charge.

I wouldn't bother with long distance trips regardless of 250 mile range or 500 mile range. They are both inconvenient.

Another thing to realize is that for very long trips, that 500 mile range battery is only helping in the sense that you get another 250 miles of range before needing to stop to charge for the first charge only. After that first charge, you're still spending roughly the same amount of time charging, because a higher range battery simply takes longer to charge.

Besides all that, how often do you travel 500 miles without stopping? I'd say stopping every 200 miles is reasonable (every 3hrs), and you'd simply charge while using the restroom, stretching, and eating.

You might want a 500 mile range truck at $100,000, but that market is exceedingly small. Small enough to not be worth the effort to develop a 500 mile range pickup.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Taylor95

The advertised range is for 100% of the battery capacity, right?

No. Every manufacturer holds back some of the capacity so 0% isn't actually 0.

Tesla seem to allow about 95% of the battery capacity to be used.
GM allows the Bolt to use 95% but the Volt only 65%
VW allows 87% on the eGolf
Hyundai allows 90% on the Ioniq
Nissan allows the 40 kWh Leaf to use 84% (between 10% and 96%)

None of this is disclosed by the manufacturer, it is from people collecting data from their cars or tearing down battery packs.

This makes it tricky to compare different EVs. You can't just look at the advertised battery capacity and EPA range. A vehicle getting less range per kWH might be less efficient or the manufacturer might just be more conservative and is holding back more of the battery capacity to extend the life and reduce warranty claims.

[redpoint5]

Tricky indeed, as the allowable usable capacity affects battery longevity, not to mention that differences in chemistry affect longevity, charge rates, discharge rates, energy density, etc.

Interesting that the Leaf has among the more conservative buffers built in, yet the most rapidly degrading batteries. My sense is they didn't get thermal management right for the chemistry they chose.

[Xist]

Are the claims of five hundred miles of range like the 0 - 60 time for the semi?

Who cares how fast it accelerates empty? I had not seen this before, but apparently it takes 20 seconds fully-loaded:
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...econds-2017-11

As I recall, it takes a loaded semi a mile or two to accelerate to the speed limit. If we say 1.5 miles and 60 MPH, that is three minutes. If you accelerate to 60 in 1/3rd of a minute, wouldn't that be 880 feet? It would take the Tesla 100 seconds to travel the same distance, saving 80 seconds every two hours or 100 miles. Let's say that you have a 600-mile drive.

You would arrive eight minutes earlier in a Tesla, compared to a conventional diesel driving the speed limit.

Eight minutes in what may be a twelve-hour shift.