Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[JSH]

Originally Posted by litesong

As mentioned, lots of diesels hit 50+MPG. Many small 3-cylinder cars give way over 50MPG. The recent 3-cylinder Ford Fiesta & other versions got over 50MPG (with power). My old 1979 Plymouth Champ, my 1988 Ford Festiva & similar older cars could hit 50MPG. 2011 Chevy Eco Cruze with 1.4 liter turbo & other similar engined cars would measure 50+MPG. 3-cylinder Ford Fiesta & other versions got over 50MPG. Many other cars....

The only ICE only vehicle sold in the USA in the past 10 years EPA rated at or above 50 mpg highway is the 2017-2018 Chevy Cruze diesel with a 6 speed manual. It is rated at 30 mpg city / 52 mpg highway. Of course diesels have a purchase premium as large as a hybrid, require DEF fluid, and a particulate filter with costs as much as a hybrid battery to replace with a similar lifespan. Not much savings there.

The 3 cylinder Fiesta is rated a 41 mpg highway
The Chevy Cruze Eco is rated at 40 mph highway

EDIT: Added comparison from fueleconomy.gov

[Xist]

"Do as I say, not as I do."--guy who does not own hybrids.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Xist

"Do as I say, not as I do."--guy who does not own hybrids.

I've owned a 2005 and 2009 Prius. Both were cheaper to drive than the 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI before or 2014 Jetta Sportwagen TDI after. Sportwagens are better cars to drive but more expensive to operate.

It wasn't about cost. It was about the car my wife wanted to drive. Happy wife / Happy life.

EDIT: I would have purchased the gasoline TSI Sportwagen if it wasn't for the steep discount and 120K mile warranty that comes with the fixed dieselgate cars.

[Bicycle Bob]

There are too many variables here to use as a trial of hybrid effectiveness. A Metro has an unsophisticated engine, but does not haul an extra half-ton of steel like most small cars. There's air drag and tire type affecting the mix, but also huge performance differences. Race cars are going hybrid.
I think that we can agree that a hybrid power train can be efficient over a wider range of outputs, but the high end is often just for fun, or drivers who can't anticipate traffic. I'm happy as long as I can keep up with the 5-ton trucks.

[Xist]

Hybrids are for lazy people. Will there be another step before full automation?

[litesong]

Originally Posted by JSH

The only ICE only vehicle sold in the USA in the past 10 years EPA rated at or above 50 mpg highway....

Question was:
"What non-hybrid returns the 50 mpg highway your Prius is rated at"?
/////////
I saw no EPA requirement in the question for non-hybrid cars, just the EPA rating of the Prius. I never could afford a Prius, because of the arrogance displayed by Prius sales-people that would NOT talk to me about lower prices. I see that same arrogance in present website Prius owners, who could afford a Prius & love to look down on non-Prius owners. So I listed ICE vehicles that I have reached 50MPG with (all much cheaper than a Prius) or reports I have read of other people reaching 50MPG or more, with non-hybrid cars.
You gave if's, and's, or but's, to my list, which does NOT negate those cars' abilities to obtain 50MPG.
Because so many non-hybrid ICE drivers(who obtain low MPG?) sneer at Prius drivers, who do obtain high MPG, I do understand why Prius drivers develop sneery attitudes in return. Never-the-less, it must be acknowledged a kinship between ALL drivers, who do obtain high MPG for the particular vehicle they drive. I would hope that those obtaining high MPG for the particular vehicle they drive, would do so in regards to the environment & our future. But I readily accept ANY person's efforts to obtain high MPG with their cars, even if its in a chase for economy records, compared to racers, who chase after speed & acceleration records(at 0.5, 1, 2 or 3 MPG?), or dirt & mud trackers, who revel in wrecking landscape environments.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by JSH

..... fixed dieselgate cars.

VW said they had clean diesels for 20 years, tho they criminally polluted city environments for all those years. But NOW ya believe them. The only thing that could have "fixed" VW, was if the "higher ups" were in jail. But "higher ups" are too "higher up" to be in jail.....kinda like Epstein.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by litesong

Question was:
"What non-hybrid returns the 50 mpg highway your Prius is rated at"?
/////////
I saw no EPA requirement in the question for non-hybrid cars, just the EPA rating of the Prius. I never could afford a Prius, because of the arrogance displayed by Prius sales-people that would NOT talk to me about lower prices. I see that same arrogance in present website Prius owners, who could afford a Prius & love to look down on non-Prius owners. So I listed ICE vehicles that I have reached 50MPG with (all much cheaper than a Prius) or reports I have read of other people reaching 50MPG or more, with non-hybrid cars.
You gave if's, and's, or but's, to my list, which does NOT negate those cars' abilities to obtain 50MPG.
Because so many non-hybrid ICE drivers(who obtain low MPG?) sneer at Prius drivers, who do obtain high MPG, I do understand why Prius drivers develop sneery attitudes in return. Never-the-less, it must be acknowledged a kinship between ALL drivers, who do obtain high MPG for the particular vehicle they drive. I would hope that those obtaining high MPG for the particular vehicle they drive, would do so in regards to the environment & our future. But I readily accept ANY person's efforts to obtain high MPG with their cars, even if its in a chase for economy records, compared to racers, who chase after speed & acceleration records(at 0.5, 1, 2 or 3 MPG?), or dirt & mud trackers, who revel in wrecking landscape environments.

I use EPA rating to compare vehicles because it is a repeatable lab test. The same cannot be said for individual reports. Can people beat the EPA rate? Sure, it isn't too hard. (I'm beating the EPA rating for my Spark by 26% at the moment) However, those are not repeatable, apples to apples comparisons.

I'm not looking for a Hybrid vs ICE fight here. My original comment was to Redpoint's statement:

Originally Posted by redpoint5

A hybrid that only travels constant speed on the highway will never recoup the extra cost, because constant highway cruising isn't where hybrid tech helps.

That is just factually wrong. Hybrid technology improves both city and highway fuel economy. The improvement in city economy is much greater than highway but it highway fuel economy is still improved.

I find it pretty amazing that a large car like an Honda Accord can get 48 mpg city and 48 mpg highway. It just shows how much technology is being held back in the Automotive sector today. I suspect we will see almost every car at least a mild hybrid in the next 6-10 years as the price of hybrid technology comes down and the price of building ICE vehicle that meet tightening emission and fuel economy standards increases.

As to the price of of a Prius. Both of mine were purchased used at a pretty steep discount. I sold my 2005 to a guy for $3500. It had 147K miles and nothing wrong with it. I traded the 2009 for $5,500. (115K miles and again, nothing wrong with it.

Hybrids have been out for 20 years now so there is a hybrid for just about any budget if someone wants a hybrid. If you don't that is fine too.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by litesong

VW said they had clean diesels for 20 years, tho they criminally polluted city environments for all those years. But NOW ya believe them. The only thing that could have "fixed" VW, was if the "higher ups" were in jail. But "higher ups" are too "higher up" to be in jail.....kinda like Epstein.

I believe CARB and the EPA. They have certified that VW's fix works. My 2014 got a complete new emission system plus new programming as part of the fix.

The are VW executives in jail including the CEO of Audi:
https://www.autonews.com/article/201...stadler-arrest

[Bicycle Bob]

It is nice to have standard tests to help with comparisons, but I have no faith in the real-world results of pollution checks. Those machines are strictly off-limits for any kind of diagnostic experimentation, for which they would be invaluable. I suspect that VW was just the most blatant cheater, and all the rest are laying low. NOX is a temporary problem, but the savings in CO2 may well have been in the public interest overall.