Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by litesong

The only thing that could have "fixed" VW, was if the "higher ups" were in jail. But "higher ups" are too "higher up" to be in jail.....kinda like Epstein.

How does jail time fix a problem? That's like me stealing your money, and claiming your loss is fixed merely by me spending time in jail, having done nothing to compensate your loss.

That isn't to say that I'm against jail time for those who willfully break laws (what is the punishment for falsifying emission specifications?). Often times punishment involves fines or punitive compensation rather than incarceration.

I'm not familiar with the law(s) that Epstein has broken, so I'd be curious to learn about them.

Originally Posted by JSH

I'm not looking for a Hybrid vs ICE fight here. My original comment was to Redpoint's statement:



That is just factually wrong. Hybrid technology improves both city and highway fuel economy. The improvement in city economy is much greater than highway but it highway fuel economy is still improved.

How can my statement be factually wrong if there's a huge variability in what can be considered "steady highway cruising" or what constitutes equivalent ICE vs hybrid vehicles?

The 2010 Toyota Camry is rated 32 MPG highway, and the hybrid is rated 34 MPG. The hybrid carried ~$3,000 price premium at the time. At 12k miles per year, the hybrid would save 22 gallons, or about $65. Payback is 46 years in this scenario. That isn't "never", but you get my point. It still doesn't factor in the extra financing charges associated with the $3k hybrid premium, or the lost interest potential of investing the $3k saved by not buying hybrid.

As hybrid technology improves and cost premiums decrease, it will increasingly make more sense for vehicles to include the technology, but to imply that all use cases financially favor hybrid tech is "factually wrong".

[Hersbird]

The highway economy of hybrids is only higher on paper because the EPA "highway" test cycle still involves stop and go just less of it than the "city". Real world highway (not a wide parking lot "highway" in the middle of a big city) there wont be a benefit in carrying around extra weight in batteries or having regenerative braking when you can go 300 miles without touching the brakes.

I suppose the special cam and tuning they put on hybrids because they can be a little short on horsepower can help on the highway, but that's not hybrid technology and could be used on any gas car.

BTW Epstein had sex with, kidnapped, and pimped out kids. That's pretty illegal everywhere.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

BTW Epstein had sex with, kidnapped, and pimped out kids. That's pretty illegal everywhere.

I guess this reinforces the importance of clearly identifying who we're talking about. The only Epstein I'm aware of being mentioned in this forum is Alex, and to my knowledge hasn't been credibly accused of any crime.

There's some dead guy (Jeffrey) that killed himself in jail that fits your description, but that couldn't be the fella litesong is referring to because he said that guy didn't go to jail (and presumably is living).

*I don't follow news because it's mostly unimportant (if it's news, then it's rare/unlikely), and mostly contains opinion rather than facts. Anyone telling me how I should interpret facts is disrespecting my capacity to arrive at my own conclusions.

[Xist]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Payback is 46 years in this scenario.

Google shows results for "Prius batteries last forever" and they cite anecdotal evidence. How would people try to justify a 46-year ROI? Tell you your math is wrong, change the subject, insult you personally, or find a good strawman?

Yes, Joffrey.

My phone gives me news updates. If I knew how to stop that I would stop seeing soccer scores, but I just shared a story in the Tesla 3 thread that my phone provided me.

[Hersbird]

Fair enough, Jeffery is the only Epstein I have ever heard of and he did avoid meaningful jail his first go around. I also wouldn't be surprised at any of the possibilities at this point. The amount on money in play with this guy I wouldn't even be surprised if he is still alive... unlike the econobox this thread is about, just to keep it on topic.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

How can my statement be factually wrong if there's a huge variability in what can be considered "steady highway cruising" or what constitutes equivalent ICE vs hybrid vehicles?

Equivalent to me is same year, make, model and options with one an ICE and the other a hybrid. Anything else is is Apples vs Oranges vs Bananas if the question is "does hybrid technology improve fuel economy at steady highway cruising"

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The 2010 Toyota Camry is rated 32 MPG highway, and the hybrid is rated 34 MPG. The hybrid carried ~$3,000 price premium at the time. At 12k miles per year, the hybrid would save 22 gallons, or about $65. Payback is 46 years in this scenario. That isn't "never", but you get my point. It still doesn't factor in the extra financing charges associated with the $3k hybrid premium, or the lost interest potential of investing the $3k saved by not buying hybrid.

Why are you comparing cars that are almost 10 years old? Especially if you are talking financing costs.

The current Toyota Camry Hybrid is rated at 53 mpg highway while the current 2.5L base Camry is rated at 39 mpg. The Hybrid SE is $3,800 more than the 2.5L Camry SE but the Hybrid comes standard with features of the 2.5L XLE. (Smart Key, Dual Zone Climate, and newer version of Toyota Safety Sense) So the cost is not an apples to apples comparison.

Jump to the Avalon and the Hybrid is rated at 43 mpg highway vs 31 mpg for the 3.5L base Avalon. The hybrid is $1,000 more than the gas only. Why would anyone buy the gas Avalon?

Originally Posted by redpoint5

As hybrid technology improves and cost premiums decrease, it will increasingly make more sense for vehicles to include the technology, but to imply that all use cases financially favor hybrid tech is "factually wrong".

And here is likely the disconnect between us. You are talking finances and I'm talking fuel efficiency. Hybrid technology saves fuel. Whether is saves enough to pay of the premium in a reasonable time depends on how the manufacturer prices and equips the hybrid vs the gas models.

TDI's were the same way. We didn't get another TDI to replace our 2003 because by 2013 VW only offered the TDI in the top trim level.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

The highway economy of hybrids is only higher on paper because the EPA "highway" test cycle still involves stop and go just less of it than the "city". Real world highway (not a wide parking lot "highway" in the middle of a big city) there wont be a benefit in carrying around extra weight in batteries or having regenerative braking when you can go 300 miles without touching the brakes.

I suppose the special cam and tuning they put on hybrids because they can be a little short on horsepower can help on the highway, but that's not hybrid technology and could be used on any gas car.

Technically it could be but it wouldn't sell in the USA. Few people are going to buy a midsize car with 98 hp.

The extra battery weight is minimal for a hybrid. Even the old 1.3 kWh NiMH battery in the Prius only weighs 93 lbs. Li-Ion batteries weigh less. The Prius adds 2 motor/generators but eliminates the starter and alternator.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

And here is likely the disconnect between us. You are talking finances and I'm talking fuel efficiency. Hybrid technology saves fuel. Whether is saves enough to pay of the premium in a reasonable time depends on how the manufacturer prices and equips the hybrid vs the gas models.

Exactly it. I had made too broad of a generalization in response to "How long does the hybrid battery need to last to save money long-term?", and you provided more precision to my generalization. I assumed you disagreed with my "it depends" response to the broad question of "when does it pay off".

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Fair enough, Jeffery is the only Epstein I have ever heard of and he did avoid meaningful jail his first go around. I also wouldn't be surprised at any of the possibilities at this point. The amount on money in play with this guy I wouldn't even be surprised if he is still alive... unlike the econobox this thread is about, just to keep it on topic.

I'll link Sendler's most excellent comment on the "other" Epstein. Alex has been mentioned a few times in the climate change consensus thread that most people probably avoid.

https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...tml#post581073

What strikes me the most is how popular and accepted the a statement like "fossil fuels are a great evil" is compared to "fossil fuels are the biggest contributor to human flourishing".

Money and fame does tend to convey privilege that isn't warranted. If OJ Simpson had no fame or fortune, he'd be still be serving time for murders.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by JSH

The only ICE only vehicle sold in the USA in the past 10 years EPA rated at or above 50 mpg highway.....

Your post was:
"What non-hybrid returns the 50 mpg highway.....".
I gave you answers, which you add "if's", "and's" or "but's" to. As to repeatability, I repeated those 50MPG claims, as other people have repeated their 50MPG runs. For a time, I even averaged 46MPG on several of the cars, including traveling over 4000foot mountain passes. One of my cars got 50+MPG, while climbing over a 5500 foot mountain pass, a 4000+foot pass, total up & down course of 11,000+ feet & 380 miles..... while stopping lots to take photographs. & that car only had a lower geared 4speed tranny, not the 5speed tranny.
Now, you add to your "if's", "and's" or "but's", that used cars are affordable, which you never included in your opening statement. As for me, I know the difference between the cars I've owned for decades & "used & abused crap cars". The term "used & abused" will apply in even greater percentages to Electric Cars & their abused battery packs. You just keep adding disqualifying stuff to your original statement.
You go your way, & I'll just keep repeating my cars to 50MPG.... even more.