Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Aerodynamics
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-15-2012, 04:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 491

OurInsight - '06 Honda Insight
Thanks: 170
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
Some Scratch Build Ideas

Like many folks here, I keep thinking of "rolling my own."

More specifically, I keep thinking of building a "car" from scratch which would optomize aerodynamic and propulsion ideas.

Here are some design drivers which seem personally relevant:
1. Probably most important is that I live in VA and they are tough on home builts, unless it is classed as a motorcycle. So I'm thinking of starting with a motorcycle engine and rear suspension, but I want to wind up with weatherproof tandem seating for two. Part of that inspiration was this:

214 mpg with DIY aerodynamic fairings on a Honda 125cc motorbike

2. If it is to be tandem for two then it is probably going to be taller than wide. Because of this, I'm considering outriged front wheels for a so called tadpole design. This architecture seems ideal for a good "template approach in plan view, as the above ref motorcycle.

3. How to do the front suspension? There is the choice of streamlined struts, perhaps with inboard shocks and springs(a la Formula Ford) and streamlined steerable fairings for the two front wheels, or,

4. A complete faring in of the front suspension, body all the way out past the front wheels (a la VW L1).

Approach in 3 has the advantage of lower A in the CdA mix, but the Cd will be a bit higher.

Approach in 4 has the advantage of a lower Cd, but the A will be a bit larger.

I'm leaning toward approach 3 since I can probably find a relatively modern Formula Ford front, from a wreck, as a starting point.

I would love to have some comment on this trade-off. Perhaps others have though some of this through. I think the less important front can be relatively close to template and certainly the rear plan view can hold template for some considerable distance before truncation.

Any comments or suggestions welcome


Last edited by jime57; 04-15-2012 at 10:44 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 04-16-2012, 06:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
aerohead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sanger,Texas,U.S.A.
Posts: 12,784
Thanks: 20,500
Thanked 6,307 Times in 3,907 Posts
Sylph

Jim have you seen Llewelyn's(sp?) Sylph?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 09:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Boise Idaho
Posts: 842
Thanks: 39
Thanked 89 Times in 69 Posts
did u look at my "motorcycle"??? mine is more of an all weather car kind of thing, and less of a true "bike", but it is recognized as a motorcycle as it has 3 wheels.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 11:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 491

OurInsight - '06 Honda Insight
Thanks: 170
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
Jim have you seen Llewelyn's(sp?) Sylph?
No I have not seen that. I was unable turn up anything on it by searching here and on google. Do you have any links?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2012, 11:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 491

OurInsight - '06 Honda Insight
Thanks: 170
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmiller100 View Post
did u look at my "motorcycle"??? mine is more of an all weather car kind of thing, and less of a true "bike", but it is recognized as a motorcycle as it has 3 wheels.
Think I may have seen that, but I'll have to do some searching later
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 09:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
NeilBlanchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,884

Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0
Team Toyota
90 day: 42.48 mpg (US)

Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S
Team Nissan
90 day: 156.46 mpg (US)

Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 155.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,404
Thanked 2,904 Times in 1,821 Posts
A search of "Llewellyn Sylph" turns up some music related results -- any other keywords that would help?

Jim, have you studied Ken Fry's Zing! which takes the tandem/enclosed fixed front wheel fenders path? Another option (depending on your local laws) is the Duo Quest by Allert Jacobs; which is a side by side vehicle with a pair of closely spaced rear wheels, and widely spaced front wheels. This may or may not qualify as a trike. An example of a standard trike with side-by-side seating is the TWIKE. I think the way it avoids the stability issues is keeping the speeds below highway speeds.

The main challenge of a trike is Cg. The location of the engine and the location of the people are the key things that determine the Cg. The geometry of the seating matter a lot to Cg. The height of the Cg matters a lot -- many tandem trikes lean in turns. Side by side trikes have very wide track on the pair of wheels, or longer wheelbase, or a closely spaced pair of wheels substituted for the single wheel (or a very wide single wheel).
__________________
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

Last edited by NeilBlanchard; 04-17-2012 at 10:12 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 10:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 18

hatch - '05 Volkswagen Golf Mk.V
90 day: 33.42 mpg (US)
Thanks: 11
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Arrow Leeuwen Sylph

Did a bit of searching because I'm too curious to wait - two photos of a model is all I've found so far. Having the right name helps a little
As I'm a lurker hopefully someone can parse the links to make it easier for others


Matt Van Leeuwen "Sylph"

flickr.com/photos/39375104@N08/6941277240/

From page 6
calteches.library.caltech.edu/528/2/Bettes.pdf [1982]
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ballo For This Useful Post:
jime57 (04-17-2012)
Old 04-17-2012, 10:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
NeilBlanchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,884

Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0
Team Toyota
90 day: 42.48 mpg (US)

Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S
Team Nissan
90 day: 156.46 mpg (US)

Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 155.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,404
Thanked 2,904 Times in 1,821 Posts
Thanks!



Leeuwen | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

calteches.library.caltech.edu/528/2/Bettes.pdf

The Matt Van Leeuwen "Sylph" looks like it requires a very clever front suspension, similar to the Edison2 VLC. By the way, Ron Mathis who is the lead engineer for Edison2 just got the patent for their VLC suspension.
__________________
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

Last edited by NeilBlanchard; 04-17-2012 at 02:19 PM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NeilBlanchard For This Useful Post:
aerohead (04-17-2012), Cd (04-17-2012), jime57 (04-17-2012)
Old 04-17-2012, 12:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 491

OurInsight - '06 Honda Insight
Thanks: 170
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
A search of "Llewellyn Sylph" turns up some music related results -- any other keywords that would help?

Jim, have you studied Ken Fry's Zing! which takes the tandem/enclosed fixed front wheel fenders path? Another option (depending on your local laws) is the Duo Quest by Allert Jacobs; which is a side by side vehicle with a pair of closely spaced rear wheels, and widely spaced front wheels. This may or may not qualify as a trike. An example of a standard trike with side-by-side seating is the TWIKE. I think the way it avoids the stability issues is keeping the speeds below highway speeds.

The main challenge of a trike is Cg. The location of the engine and the location of the people are the key things that determine the Cg. The geometry of the seating matter a lot to Cg. The height of the Cg matters a lot -- many tandem trikes lean in turns. Side by side trikes have very wide track on the pair of wheels, or longer wheelbase, or a closely spaced pair of wheels substituted for the single wheel (or a very wide single wheel).
Yeah, I turned up all that musical stuff too. Maybe Phil will be a bit more specific.

I thank you for your thoughts. I am leaning toward the tandem seating idea because it keeps the frontal area small. The VW L1 did the same thing. But, your thoughts on cg height are certainly serious concerns. I don't think a car that leans into the turns like a bike is going to be an attractive approach, for lots of reasons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2012, 07:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 491

OurInsight - '06 Honda Insight
Thanks: 170
Thanked 69 Times in 44 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballo View Post
Did a bit of searching because I'm too curious to wait - two photos of a model is all I've found so far. Having the right name helps a little
As I'm a lurker hopefully someone can parse the links to make it easier for others


Matt Van Leeuwen "Sylph"

flickr.com/photos/39375104@N08/6941277240/

From page 6
calteches.library.caltech.edu/528/2/Bettes.pdf [1982]
I love the shape. Looks like it would work great for a motorcycle based approach with tandem seating.One would have to handle the canopy size and rear visibility issues very carefully. Too much greenhouse and you get a sauna. The cg issue would need careful attention. A motocycle engine is fairly low, but passengers would be a cg challenge, maybe one high and one low?

I think I know how to do the front suspension. Ever heard of the Morgan sliding pillar?

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com