Structural batteries in electric vehicles

[redpoint5]

You're at the heart of why EVs are not suitable alternatives for ICE; the sucky batteries.

EVs as suitable alternatives relies completely on the assumption that we'll develop battery technology sufficiently, which isn't the sure thing that many people assume it is.

With taxpayers subsidizing EVs at $7,500-$10,000 they have accounted for 2% of vehicle sales in the US. As I often mention, the batteries need to deliver at least $7,500 more value than they currently do to merely make up for loss of subsidies, let alone surpass ICE in sales.

EVs are the value proposition for those whose commutes are very long, but within the range of the vehicle. Not so for those who put in few miles or have commutes beyond the range of the vehicle.

I suspect batteries will overcome their many enormous challenges, but that might just be my hope and optimism speaking. Hope and optimism aren't sufficient for making policy that affects taxpayers and benefits the wealthy, which is why betting on EVs almost exclusively at the expense of all other incentives and disincentives to reduce oil dependency is a fools errand.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Does it cost $8,000 to install a new engine in a car???

Depends on the engine and if you are paying someone else to do the work. The last new crate engine I looked at was something like this:

https://www.karlkustoms.com/product/...-crate-engine/

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

What about the costs and benefits of rebuilding an engine compared to rebuilding a battery that has low range?

Looking at rebuilt hybrid batteries I'd say the benefits are similar. You can get rebuilt batteries for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Or you can buy you own rebuilt kit and rebuild you battery. Or you can buy cells and fix your battery. The more work you do the more you save.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

And that's talking about a 10 year old car, not a 30 or 40 year old car. What if the EV is worth only $3,000 or $1,500 30 or 40 years from now. Then an $8,000 new battery would be pretty much out of the question. Throw away the car and buy a new one.

Same as with a gas car. VERY few 30 year old gas cars get rebuilt and kept on the road. Even with a 15 year old car a major repair costing thousands will send most to the scrapyard.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

Looking at rebuilt hybrid batteries I'd say the benefits are similar. You can get rebuilt batteries for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Or you can buy you own rebuilt kit and rebuild you battery. Or you can buy cells and fix your battery. The more work you do the more you save.

As I've mentioned before, having two aging hybrids of my own and having spoken with and looked up on forums dozens of people who have dealt with rebuilt batteries the consensus is that rebuilt batteries, whether by a company or DIY, are good for up to a year, maybe two. I have rebuilt one hybrid battery myself. But I know i will be needing to replace it soon, and that will be with a dealer OEM battery unless I decide to sell it soon.

[redpoint5]

2x Powerwall (basically the minimum Tesla recommends) is $17k. $10.5k for 1.

A single Powerwall holds 13.5 kWh. That's nearly a grand per kWh. It's cheaper per kWh to buy a Tesla Model 3, yank out the battery, and scrap the car.



I do really want to see Oasis sing an advertisement for Powerwall.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

As I've mentioned before, having two aging hybrids of my own and having spoken with and looked up on forums dozens of people who have dealt with rebuilt batteries the consensus is that rebuilt batteries, whether by a company or DIY, are good for up to a year, maybe two. I have rebuilt one hybrid battery myself. But I know i will be needing to replace it soon, and that will be with a dealer OEM battery unless I decide to sell it soon.

What type of rebuild did you do?

As you know there are lots of options out there. I think as a minimum I would go with a complete set of tested battery cells for about $1000. The next step up would be a complete set of new cells ($2,000 with a 3 year warranty) but at that point you can get a brand new OEM Toyota battery.

For the 2009 I had - https://parts.toyota.com/p/Toyota__/...951047031.html

$1995 or about the price of a remanufactured transmission and way easier to install.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

2x Powerwall (basically the minimum Tesla recommends) is $17k. $10.5k for 1.

A single Powerwall holds 13.5 kWh. That's nearly a grand per kWh. It's cheaper per kWh to buy a Tesla Model 3, yank out the battery, and scrap the car.

Which tells you how much Tesla is overcharging for a powerwall when they say their cost is $100 per kWh. You are also paying for the brand name.

BYD's battery back-ups are quite a bit less - $700 per kWh.

https://www.ecodirect.com/BYD-Batter...-box-h10.0.htm

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

What type of rebuild did you do?

As you know there are lots of options out there. I think as a minimum I would go with a complete set of tested battery cells for about $1000. The next step up would be a complete set of new cells ($2,000 with a 3 year warranty) but at that point you can get a brand new OEM Toyota battery.

For the 2009 I had - https://parts.toyota.com/p/Toyota__/...951047031.html

$1995 or about the price of a remanufactured transmission and way easier to install.

I took a 6-cell NiMH charger, charged up each module. I had a discharge meter and large rehostat and dischared and recorded all capacities. Took out the bad module and the two with the worse capacities. Replaced them with three Gen 3 modules from eBay (this is a 2006 Gen 2 I'm working on). I rearanged the modules putting the best where the previous modules had degraded the worse (the middle) and put the worse where they had degraded the least (the edges). Then I wired all the modules in parallel and charged them back up to the same voltage. Then put back together and put in the Prius.

$1995 for a hybrid battery that'll last another 15 years sounds good to me. But at $700 per kWh for an EV battery, a large 80 or 90 or 100 kWh battery sounds expensive to replace.

[freebeard]

It's cheaper per kWh to buy a Tesla Model 3, yank out the battery, and scrap the car.

The only problem I see with this is that the Model 3 doesn't have the Octovalve, just the Model Y.

[oil pan 4]

Hopefully this severely and profoundly retarded idea gets patented so "no one can steal it".

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I took a 6-cell NiMH charger, charged up each module. I had a discharge meter and large rehostat and dischared and recorded all capacities. Took out the bad module and the two with the worse capacities. Replaced them with three Gen 3 modules from eBay (this is a 2006 Gen 2 I'm working on). I rearanged the modules putting the best where the previous modules had degraded the worse (the middle) and put the worse where they had degraded the least (the edges). Then I wired all the modules in parallel and charged them back up to the same voltage. Then put back together and put in the Prius.

Yes - that is likely a year or two solution before another cell goes bad and you have to repeat the process.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

$1995 for a hybrid battery that'll last another 15 years sounds good to me. But at $700 per kWh for an EV battery, a large 80 or 90 or 100 kWh battery sounds expensive to replace.

Manufacturing cost for Li-Ion EV batteries is $100 per kWh and about $130 per kWh assembled into a pack. A 24 kWh Nissan Leaf pack is $8K or $333 per kWh.

The good thing about big packs in that they can degrade a lot farther and still have useful range. They also aren't stress near as much as small packs in day to day use. The smaller the daily discharge the more full cycles you get and the longer the pack lasts.

[Isaac Zachary]

True. And batteries seem to just be getting cheaper.

Bigger batteries can also stay farther away from the 100% and 0% areas that are where batteries degrade the most.

It's stories like this one that bother me. (Tesla wanted $16,000 to fix a little plastic tube on the battery.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVSw3KSevEc&t=972s