Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2021, 10:41 AM   #41 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,043
Thanks: 462
Thanked 1,104 Times in 974 Posts
To replace that coolant tube, there's a ton of disassembly required including removing the skateboard.. The Tesla beancounters figured out how much that cost was. The guy that fixed it with a hardware store part (which may or may not be 100% compatible) didn't disassemble so cheaper repair. He did void the remaining warranty.

__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 07-27-2021, 10:53 AM   #42 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 12,186

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 34.2 mpg (US)

Gramps - '04 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.39 mpg (US)

Don't hit me bro - '05 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.79 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7,217
Thanked 2,217 Times in 1,708 Posts
Weird. I logged in and clicked on Read Unread.

The page reloaded.

I clicked on Page 2 and the page reloaded.

I finally clicked on Go Advanced and scrolled down to read the new messages.

That isn't right!
__________________
"Oh if you use math, reason, and logic you will be hated."--OilPan4
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 11:05 AM   #43 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,043
Thanks: 462
Thanked 1,104 Times in 974 Posts
It is if someone like me is editing the page or reply.
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 04:35 PM   #44 (permalink)
High Altitude Hybrid
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Gunnison, CO
Posts: 1,954

Avalon - '13 Toyota Avalon HV
90 day: 40.45 mpg (US)

Prius - '06 Toyota Prius
Thanks: 1,035
Thanked 538 Times in 432 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
To replace that coolant tube, there's a ton of disassembly required including removing the skateboard.. The Tesla beancounters figured out how much that cost was. The guy that fixed it with a hardware store part (which may or may not be 100% compatible) didn't disassemble so cheaper repair. He did void the remaining warranty.
But...
  1. How easy is it to do damage to a fairly new engine or transmission to the point that it requires the whole engine and/or transmission to be rebuilt or replaced? Would running over a piece of tire tread or similar and immediately pulling over and turning off the vehicle do that much damaged?
  2. Would it cost $16,000 to do that, to take apart a new engine or transmission and put it back together to fix one broken piece of plastic inside it caused from running over a piece of tire?

The point is that if it costs $16,000 to fix a battery that has perfectly good cells and perfectly good electronics and only needs a plastic fitting fixed, how much will it cost to fix the battery once the whole battery needs replacing?

It seems to me that our only hope is that the battery in our EV's lasts as long as the rest of the car and as long as an ICEV would last. Otherwise replacing or repairing it would be prohibitively expensive.

This also shows why insurance on EV's is so high. If manufacturers put a little plastic tube on the front of the car that costs $16,000 if it gets cracked your car is an expensive repair bill waiting to happen.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 06:15 PM   #45 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 27,562
Thanks: 7,738
Thanked 8,554 Times in 7,041 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist
That isn't right!
If the posts are in reverse order and the illustrations are missing, it is.
__________________
.
.
Without freedom of speech we wouldn't know who all the idiots are. -- anonymous poster

____________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 08:13 PM   #46 (permalink)
JSH
AKA - Jason
 
JSH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PDX
Posts: 3,481

Adventure Seeker - '04 Chevy Astro - Campervan
90 day: 17.3 mpg (US)
Thanks: 306
Thanked 2,053 Times in 1,387 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary View Post
But...
  1. How easy is it to do damage to a fairly new engine or transmission to the point that it requires the whole engine and/or transmission to be rebuilt or replaced? Would running over a piece of tire tread or similar and immediately pulling over and turning off the vehicle do that much damaged?
  2. Would it cost $16,000 to do that, to take apart a new engine or transmission and put it back together to fix one broken piece of plastic inside it caused from running over a piece of tire?

The point is that if it costs $16,000 to fix a battery that has perfectly good cells and perfectly good electronics and only needs a plastic fitting fixed, how much will it cost to fix the battery once the whole battery needs replacing?

It seems to me that our only hope is that the battery in our EV's lasts as long as the rest of the car and as long as an ICEV would last. Otherwise replacing or repairing it would be prohibitively expensive.

This also shows why insurance on EV's is so high. If manufacturers put a little plastic tube on the front of the car that costs $16,000 if it gets cracked your car is an expensive repair bill waiting to happen.
Tesla isn't really a good benchmark.

A) They aren't focused on the ability to repair the car. (The giant new structural casting is another example of a stupid idea that makes a car very likely to be totaled instead of repaired)
B) They don't have independent dealers that can compete against one another and they don't sell parts to independent shops. Tesla wants to control every part of the ownership experience.

However the idea is that an EV battery will last the life of the car and then be repurposed into another use. Time will tell if that happens - we are only a decade into EV sales at any scale. With the exception of the Leaf battery life is looking good so far.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JSH For This Useful Post:
Isaac Zachary (07-27-2021)
Old 07-27-2021, 08:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
High Altitude Hybrid
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Gunnison, CO
Posts: 1,954

Avalon - '13 Toyota Avalon HV
90 day: 40.45 mpg (US)

Prius - '06 Toyota Prius
Thanks: 1,035
Thanked 538 Times in 432 Posts
Good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
However the idea is that an EV battery will last the life of the car and then be repurposed into another use. Time will tell if that happens - we are only a decade into EV sales at any scale. With the exception of the Leaf battery life is looking good so far.
I wonder where one could find a list of EV's and their average battery degradation over the years. I suppose more of that kind of info will come out with time.

I have heard good things of many besides Nissan's batteries too. Time will tell.

My intuition tells me that the batteries in EV's are a lot like cellphone and laptop batteries. Those seem to lose capacity and die after 5 years or so. And they don't sit out in the elements like a car does. That and I've had an impossible time finding decent aftermarket replacement batteries. Half the time they have the same or worse capacity as the aged original and die within months.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2021, 09:07 PM   #48 (permalink)
Human Environmentalist
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,396

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 24.19 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 26.68 mpg (US)

Chevy ZR-2 - '03 Chevrolet S10 ZR2
90 day: 17.14 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,192
Thanked 4,380 Times in 3,354 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
However the idea is that an EV battery will last the life of the car and then be repurposed into another use. Time will tell if that happens - we are only a decade into EV sales at any scale. With the exception of the Leaf battery life is looking good so far.
Lots of turmoil in the Bolt forums the last 8 months. GM released 3 "fixes" for relatively uncommon fires related to defective LG batteries, but apparently that didn't do the trick.

GM is advising owners to only operate the vehicle between 30%-80% charge, and to park the vehicle outside immediately after charging as they work on the 4th solution to the problem.

Hyundai already issued a recall to replace Kona batteries produced at the same Korean LG manufacturing plant, so that may be a sign of things to come for GM.

Batteries are still a huge unknown liability for manufacturers. Hopefully batteries degrade peacefully, but there's a balancing act of tuning the chemistry to maximize the many relevant performance metrics.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
Xist (07-27-2021)
Old 07-27-2021, 10:59 PM   #49 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 12,186

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 34.2 mpg (US)

Gramps - '04 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.39 mpg (US)

Don't hit me bro - '05 Toyota Camry LE
90 day: 35.79 mpg (US)
Thanks: 7,217
Thanked 2,217 Times in 1,708 Posts
The Electric Vehicle Company (EVC) had more than 600 electric cabs operating in New York with smaller fleets in Boston, Baltimore, and other eastern cities by the early 1900s
Quote:
In New York, the downtime it took to recharge batteries was addressed by converting an ice arena into a battery-swapping station where a cab could drive in, have its spent batteries replaced with a recharged set, and move on out. Brilliant, but like many a startup, it expanded too quickly, ran into unforeseen conflicts among investors and partners, and the whole taxi venture had collapsed by 1907.
EVC’s battery supplier (which was an investor and partner) became what we know today as Exide. Its manufacturing partner, Pope (also a gasoline-car pioneer), took the technology and applied a name from its thriving bicycle business, Columbia, to a run of cars for public sale. Columbia [bottom right] reached the 1000-units-built milestone well before those visionary mass-manufacturers in Detroit, Ransom Olds and Henry Ford, got up to speed.
Worth the Watt: A Brief History of the Electric Car, 1830 to Present

Henry Ford's wife Clara drove an EV from 1908 to 1914 because she found her husband’s product dirty and noisy!

Rich women also preferred electric cars because gassers of that time required hand-cranking, so there were charging stations in city centers, but electric cars were doomed once electric starters were invented.

GM built an electric Corvair in 1964 and then another in 1966 using exotic components. It had a top speed of 80 MPH and range of 40-80 miles, but the batteries could survive only 100 recharge cycles and the pack cost $160,000--in 1966 dollars.

The Citicar and Comuta-Car sold "4444 units, making it the largest electric-car producer in America since the end of World War II, a distinction it would maintain until 2013."

This car may have led to the creation of Tesla:
Quote:
Alan Cocconi founded AC Propulsion in San Dimas, California, in 1992. He provided GM with much of the electric-related genius that made the Impact concept and subsequent EV1 work properly, including contributions to its inverter.

In 1997, AC Propulsion revealed the tzero seen here, with 150 kW (201 horsepower) and lead-acid batteries (Johnson Controls Optima Yellow Tops). The body and chassis were basically the pre-existing Piontek Sportech fiberglass kit car.
Eventual Tesla Motors co-founder Martin Eberhard commissioned a tzero using lithium-ion cells, which were just becoming available. It was supposed to have a 0-to-60-mph in 3.7 seconds, but cost $220,000.

The creators "resisted putting the car into production, Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning incorporated Tesla Motors in 2003."

They say the first Roadsters were basically tzeros with Lotus Elise bodies, which were one grade above kit cars.

Shai Agassi founded Better Place in 2009 and went through more than $850 million in investments before going bankrupt in 2013.

The business plan "relied on the notion of a standardized battery pack that could be swapped out rather than recharged onboard," but Agassi excelled in offending other automakers, who he needed to build the batteries.
Quote:
Thirteen years since its incorporation and eight orbits of the sun since introducing its first production car, in those terms, Tesla has outlasted nearly every other new startup auto company since Porsche and Ferrari and Lamborghini were born after WWII.
Some day I may remember what I was trying to find.

By the way, I have tried repeatedly to find statistics on Prius batteries, but all that I get is opinion.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	electrobat-to-columbia-33-1621520766.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	77.1 KB
ID:	31086   Click image for larger version

Name:	ac-propulsion-tzero-15-1530040210.jpg
Views:	66
Size:	61.8 KB
ID:	31087  
__________________
"Oh if you use math, reason, and logic you will be hated."--OilPan4
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 06:07 PM   #50 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,548
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,622 Times in 1,447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
Shai Agassi founded Better Place in 2009 and went through more than $850 million in investments before going bankrupt in 2013.

The business plan "relied on the notion of a standardized battery pack that could be swapped out rather than recharged onboard," but Agassi excelled in offending other automakers, who he needed to build the batteries.Some day I may remember what I was trying to find.
Let's suppose a similar approach could be economically viable, and EV makers were not so focused on proving them to fare better performance-wise than an ICE-powered car. Also considering safety, chemical stability and recyclability to be priorities, leading to the usage of "outdated" lead-acid battery packs, most likely the best testbeds for such setup could be those Japanese forward-control vans, as they require some under-floor clearance for a transmission, driveshaft and suspension travel when fitted with a solid rear axle. There would be plenty of space to add enough batteries to provide a range suitable to the needs of an average Joe or Sally, and maybe even allowing some streamlining to improve efficiency.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com