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Old 05-22-2020, 05:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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'template' in contemporary aerodynamic literature

Hucho discusses the 'template' in his second edition. I've already provided all the citations.
Anyone reading the book in 1987,or after would already have had access to the theory and the off-the-shelf technology.
As long as Paris Dressmakers dominate design,it doesn't matter what's published. With or without a template. All an aerodynamicist can do,is submit data to the committee that will be making the decisions and spelling out the specifications.And those folks have been concentrating on hedonic adaptation since 1926 or so.They're the ones who killed off the 'template.' I believe that they'd prefer that the 'template' remain 'killed.' Alfred P. Sloan Jr. wrote a book on it.

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Old 05-22-2020, 06:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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A book that is 33 years old is not 'contemporary aerodynamic literature'.

If the shape of the template is the best for drag, I'd have expected many references to it in current aero tech literature. I know of no such references.

That says to me that you are over-simplifying your analysis, as it applies to road cars.

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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contemporary use

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianEdgar View Post
A book that is 33 years old is not 'contemporary aerodynamic literature'.

If the shape of the template is the best for drag, I'd have expected many references to it in current aero tech literature. I know of no such references.

That says to me that you are over-simplifying your analysis, as it applies to road cars.

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Please examine:
2006 Mitsubishi i
2008 M-B Bionic Boxfish
2010 Kia Ray concept
2010 Honda FCX Clarity
2010 BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics
2010 Vauxhall/Opel Flextreme GT-E
2011 SAAB Phoenix
2011 Tata Jaguar, 75-Anniversary C-X75
2011 Ford Evos

2012 Scion/ Aston Martin iQ/ Cygnet.
2012 Prius-V
2012 Toyota FT-Bh
2012 SolarWorld GT
2012 Honda Insight-II
2012 Subaru/Scion BRZ/-F
2013 Cambrige University CUER Eco Racer
2013 Mitsubishi Concept CA-MiEV
2013 McLAREN X-1
2013 Hyundai Veloster
2013 Honda AC-X Plug-in
2014 Chevrolet Spark
2014 Renault EOLAB
2014 Cadillac CTS V sport
2015 BMW i8
2015 Mitsubishi Mirage 'G'
2015 Ford C-Max Energi
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
2015 Buick Riviera
2015 Chevrolet Corvette
2016 Hyundai Ioniq
2016 M-B IAA
2017 Chevrolet Bolt
2017 Acura NSX
2018 Nissan-Renault Alliance Alpine A100
2018 McLAREN 720S
2018 KIA Stinger GT
2019 McLAREN Speedtail
2020 Tesla Roadster
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
' If we were to design the cars 100% streamlined,following all the aerodynamic principles,would not all the cars look exactly alike and the designers have nothing to do?' H. Schmude, General Motors Corporation, to, Walter Korff,Lockheed Aircraft Company, Automobile Engineering Congress, 1963, Re. SAE Transactions, Volume 72,Page 592, 1964.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hucho targeted 'designers' with his textbooks. Anyone who's read his books, whom possesses any perspicacity, will be fully aware of the 'template.'
Since the existence of the 'template' threatens their very existence,do you believe that they would openly discuss it?
That we even have to discuss it here on an obscure website,underscores a complete failure on the part of public education,worldwide.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to Adrian Gaylord. Jaguar has produced a Cd 0.26 vehicle? Quite an accomplishment,considering that Opel had a production Cd 0.26 in 1989. And R.G.S. White gave us a free recipe for Cd 0.245 as of 1969.
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Last edited by aerohead; 05-27-2020 at 05:08 PM.. Reason: add data
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Old 05-27-2020, 05:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
Please examine:
2006 Mitsubishi i
2008 M-B Bionic Boxfish
2010 Kia Ray concept
2010 Honda FCX Clarity
2010 BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics
2010 Vauxhall/Opel Flextreme GT-E
2011 SAAB Phoenix
2011 Tata Jaguar, 75-Anniversary C-X75
2011 Ford Evos

2012 Scion/ Aston Martin iQ/ Cygnet.
2012 Prius-V
2012 Toyota FT-Bh
2012 SolarWorld GT
2012 Honda Insight-II
2012 Subaru/Scion BRZ/-F
2013 Cambrige University CUER Eco Racer
2013 Mitsubishi Concept CA-MiEV
2013 McLAREN X-1
2013 Hyundai Veloster
2013 Honda AC-X Plug-in
2014 Chevrolet Spark
2014 Renault EOLAB
2014 Cadillac CTS V sport
2015 BMW i8
2015 Mitsubishi Mirage 'G'
2015 Ford C-Max Energi
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
2015 Buick Riviera
2015 Chevrolet Corvette
2016 Hyundai Ioniq
2016 M-B IAA
2017 Chevrolet Bolt
2017 Acura NSX
2018 Nissan-Renault Alliance Alpine A100
2018 McLAREN 720S
2018 KIA Stinger GT
2019 McLAREN Speedtail
2020 Tesla Roadster
You have made a long list of cars. Are you saying they all have identical side profiles?

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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
' If we were to design the cars 100% streamlined,following all the aerodynamic principles,would not all the cars look exactly alike and the designers have nothing to do?' H. Schmude, General Motors Corporation, to, Walter Korff,Lockheed Aircraft Company, Automobile Engineering Congress, 1963, Re. SAE Transactions, Volume 72,Page 592, 1964.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this sort of thing was often said in the past. Even now people write how all cars look alike because of aerodynamics. It's pretty odd, because I see cars that look completely unlike and yet have low drag.

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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
Hucho targeted 'designers' with his textbooks. Anyone who's read his books, whom possesses any perspicacity, will be fully aware of the 'template.'
Obviously I don't have the perspicacity then. Can you quote some page numbers?

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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post

Since the existence of the 'template' threatens their very existence,do you believe that they would openly discuss it?
Why aren't I surprised that you've now got into conspiracy theories...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
That we even have to discuss it here on an obscure website,underscores a complete failure on the part of public education,worldwide.
No, it (the template) represents an example of a discussion group going down a rabbit hole where a theory was developed without a lot of evidence - and then grabbed joyfully because of its simplicity.
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
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In fact, this is becoming more than a bit ridiculous.

The last two cars on your list: 2020 Tesla Roadster and 2019 McLaren Speedtail.

And according to you, they're meant to have the same shape? And that's like your template? Well, which one is? It can't be both - let alone all the other cars on your list.



(Happy for someone with better software skills than I to overlay them.)
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Last edited by JulianEdgar; 05-28-2020 at 03:36 AM..
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Old 05-28-2020, 04:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I mean at some stage you need to talk about the emperor's clothes - especially in a situation when people are actually spending money, time and energy trying to implement this stuff.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Over the template and each other: (highest point to highest point)

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Old 05-28-2020, 07:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Scaled to actual lengths would be most appropriate wouldn’t it?
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:55 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Scaled to actual lengths would be most appropriate wouldn’t it?
"The template" is designed to be scaled to the height of the tallest point iirc, that's the way I used it on my F100 aero canopy and the way I've seen it applied to most other vehicles on this site.

I doubt the tesla and mclaren are anywhere near the same size but I don't think scale is relative to the shape in the context of "the template"
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Wikipedia gives 5137mm for the length of the Speedtail, but for the Roadster I only found an estimate 4382mm (translated from 172.5"). That would put these images within 2% of each other relative to real size.

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