ThermoElectric Radiator

[trebuchet03]

So I'm in the Senior Design class at my University and I get to see all of the projects everyone else does (in addition to mine, of course ). One project happens to be a Thermoelectric radiator for a car.

Basically, they're removing two tubes from a radiator and putting 4 banks of thermocouples in. Experimentally (mimicking conditions on one thermocouple) they've calculated power production of a tad more (or maybe it was a tad less) than 1.5kW (which was their target).

Here's an application I found through searching the interwebs...

http://www.hi-z.com/websit07.htm

http://www.hi-z.com/websit06.htm

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/thermoradio.htm

The Soviet Union had a Thermoelectric radio way back... If you had a coal fire in the stove, you could effectively say you are using a coal powered radio


I think I read somewhere that a modern car can use up to 3.5kW (compared to 1.5kW in the year 2000) as a result of flybywire, more control systems etc....

Comments?

[TomO]

It would be cool to test the thermoelectric setup by making the entire exhaust of a car with them. Something that runs lean like the Civic VX might be able to produce enough heat for a long enough distance in the exhaust system to power the headlights at night as well as the ignition system. One might have to improve the ignition system's efficiency a tad, or just replace all lights with LEDs to make it plausible.

Of course, with a price tag of $124 each for the HZ-14 units and needing at least 70 of them to replace the alternator altogether. VX alternator = 90A (90A x 12V = 1080W) and 70 HZ-14 units = 980W. That would be a cost of $8804, not including the ceramic plates, heat transfer grease, and shipping needed to make this project happen at this time.

Now if the effects of not having an alternator and belt dragging on the D15Z1 would net you a generous 15% improvement in FE, let's go with an average MPG of 50 for the VX. That would be a new average of 57.5 MPG. You'd save just over 1 gallon of gas every tank. So if Gasoline was $3/gallon it would take 2934 tanks to cover the cost of the units. I know it takes me about two weeks to use up a tank of gas, so that would take nearly 112 years to cover the cost simply via the savings.

I might be way off on my calculations since I've just had lunch and a slightly lethargic brain. Really cool concept though...and one heck of an expensive muffler.

If things go well though, the prices should come down as the cost of the technology decreases.

[trebuchet03]

^^ Yep, that's the idea - proof of concept now, then wait for prices to drop. Typically new applications (especially large scale applications) give incentives to innovate/bring prices down

The senior design project isn't even on the exhaust -- it's using the much lower temperatures from engine coolant o.0 I'm not sure what thermocouple units they are using though...

[TomO]

Hmm, that would help to have them in every spot possible that is exposed to heat, i.e. radiator, exhaust, heater core, engine block.

It would also be cool to see what has been done incorporating magnets in the bearings or rims of the car to help generate some form of electricity to help offset alternator demand. But then the magnetic resistance would slow the car some as well. Uh-oh, now I'm starting to get into the law of averages, lol.

[abogart]

Very interesting concept here. I have thought about this myself, though mostly in relation to the heat of exhaust gases. If the thermocouple material could effectively remove enough heat energy from the engine coolant to keep the engine at standard operating temperature, why not incorporate the thermocouples directly into the engine block, possibly eliminating the need for engine coolant and a water pump entirely. That would result in not only reduction in engine load due the removal of the water pump accessory, but also greatly increased aerodynamics due eliminating the need for a radiator and front grille. Also, thermocouples that could remove that much energy could surely replace the alternator, eliminating the need for that as well. In fact, there might even be a problem with storing the extra energy generated from all of the heat. It seems this would be best implemented in a hybrid vehicle.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

[stovie]

Originally Posted by TomO

Hmm, that would help to have them in every spot possible that is exposed to heat, i.e. radiator, exhaust, heater core, engine block.

It would also be cool to see what has been done incorporating magnets in the bearings or rims of the car to help generate some form of electricity to help offset alternator demand. But then the magnetic resistance would slow the car some as well. Uh-oh, now I'm starting to get into the law of averages, lol.

well that would actually work pretty good i went to a home builders show in vegas 2-3 years ago and they had a wind generator there that had the magnets and coils on the outs ide of the blades and it would produce power with as little as 6 mph winds, they said that having the magnets and coils on the outside helped reduce there total resistance on the blades quit a bite. if you hooked magnets on the inside of the rims and put the coils on something stationary, then also have it to where it doesn't produce any power tell you hit like 15 - 20 mph so then that way the cars momentum counteracts the resistance of the magnets on the vehicle.