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Old 09-27-2010, 10:56 AM   #41 (permalink)
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where is the emoticon for a round of appaulause when you need it! A very well placed and founded counter point there. I too see you're point about attitudes either side of the pond, I've witnessed them first hand too - I just couldn't imagine a main street in the US even the size of Emden in Germany going pedestrian in a similar way, let alone ones equal to Amsterdam, Bath, Nantes. I mean if I went to one of my favourite small towns in the states East Greenwich, RI. and I said everything from the corner of Rocky hollow and main through past grille on main (love that place) to say the corner of Post and Arnold, then take it as wide a Marlborough street one way and liberty the other and say it was a carfree zone (I know thats arbourtory but I'm using the few places I know) I think they'd be up roar!!

As you say maybe its more a question of the way the town/city was build and has matured? like a 4-lane main of a US city verse the one-way streets and 'close' nature of say Paris, Rome or Oxford.(Granted Greenwich in my example is a sleepy little two-laner!)

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:28 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Also as to euromodders statement (not you but it saves me another posting) on a minority imposing their will on a majority... Yes, but since it's not a mandatory thing, ie you don't get fined for taking the car that day,
The centres of participating Belgian cities are mandatory car-free.
Parking or driving in them becomes a traffic offence, and people DO get fined if they don't participate.

When I'm working on a car free day, I have to either take the car outside the perimeter beforehand (a short drive, the ones I'd rather avoid !), or leave it outside the perimeter to collect it later.


Quote:
The message is in essence: Leave the car at home,
That may have been the idea, but lets all cut the crap and face reality :
This car-free day is anything but car-free !
For all too many people the car-free city centres have become theme parks that they go visit for fun - and all too often by car as far as it'll take them.

Public transport doesn't run on normal weekly or weekend schedules either. So being able to get anywhere at all that day is no indication of what public transport might mean to anyone on a normal day.


I can symphatise with anyone who makes a conscious decision to live (almost) without a car, but please spare me the hypocrisy of these car free days.
They're an environmental disaster rather than an eye opener.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:00 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robchalmers View Post
where is the emoticon for a round of appaulause when you need it! A very well placed and founded counter point there. I too see you're point about attitudes either side of the pond, I've witnessed them first hand too - I just couldn't imagine a main street in the US even the size of Emden in Germany going pedestrian in a similar way, let alone ones equal to Amsterdam, Bath, Nantes. I mean if I went to one of my favourite small towns in the states East Greenwich, RI. and I said everything from the corner of Rocky hollow and main through past grille on main (love that place) to say the corner of Post and Arnold, then take it as wide a Marlborough street one way and liberty the other and say it was a carfree zone (I know thats arbourtory but I'm using the few places I know) I think they'd be up roar!!

As you say maybe its more a question of the way the town/city was build and has matured? like a 4-lane main of a US city verse the one-way streets and 'close' nature of say Paris, Rome or Oxford.(Granted Greenwich in my example is a sleepy little two-laner!)
Actually I think it's partially because in the US it's a lot more common or at least used to be more common, to tear down and rebuild town centre's... All over Europe the town centers has to some extent remained and just evolved... That's why we have small one-way streets and they have 4 lanes... There might be old buildings in the town center of a US city, but they are spaced apart and generally not that old... All over here you can find most of the town center intact from several hundred years back, without houses having been torn down to make room inbetween buildings for a large road...

I'm not saying the European way is right or the US way is wrong... That's not anything you can judge, it's history and heritage... It's just a difference... Something I'm aware of, you are aware of and most europeans along with us... Unfortunately the general public in the US seems not to know it...

I don't know the place you are referring to, but my guess is that it would be a few square blocks... Would that be a correct assumption? If so, agreed, that's not that uncommon in Sweden as well...

Or to use an example of a town very close from where I live which I frequently visit... Lund... Most of the town center is accesible by car, but the smallest centre core is closed of, only buses and taxi's can go in there... The size of that zone is roughly a 2-3 km circle... The only traffic allowed in there is public transport, taxi's, and if the the driver is a resident using his car for loading/unloading or a contractor needing to load/unload his tools and supply or similar... Ie no, you can't drive in there and park your car every day, and besides there are no parking spaces...

Then follows a zone of one-way streets before you get to the parts that are "open" to cars... The streets in the one-way zone and closed zone is cobblestone, one car plus most usually one small sidewalk wide and more rarely two sidewalks... Some of them open up to allow cross traffic in shorter sections, but that's more rare... Getting to a specific adress without knowing the way will undoubtedly piss you off royally as you will likely pass by it without being able to go in that street...

Get on a bike though, and you can go anywhere in the zone quite easily... Many, but not all streets allow cross traffic on bikes, some are bike only, and if the two above doesn't apply, there is a specific bike lane...

If you live and work in the town or close by, using a car isn't just polluting, it's outright idiotic as you spend three times the time to get from one end of the city to the other as it takes by bike... In most cases you would arrive faster by foot than by car, and that is without cheating and using a bus, which usually beats the bike, but not always...

I'm not there that often, and the first time I was going to a specific adress in the one-way zone I damned near had a epeleptic fit, but once I figured out the system it works, and it keeps traffic to a minimum... Not because cars aren't allowed, but because they become a hindrance...
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:17 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euromodder View Post
The centres of participating Belgian cities are mandatory car-free.
Parking or driving in them becomes a traffic offence, and people DO get fined if they don't participate.

When I'm working on a car free day, I have to either take the car outside the perimeter beforehand (a short drive, the ones I'd rather avoid !), or leave it outside the perimeter to collect it later.



That may have been the idea, but lets all cut the crap and face reality :
This car-free day is anything but car-free !
For all too many people the car-free city centres have become theme parks that they go visit for fun - and all too often by car as far as it'll take them.

Public transport doesn't run on normal weekly or weekend schedules either. So being able to get anywhere at all that day is no indication of what public transport might mean to anyone on a normal day.


I can symphatise with anyone who makes a conscious decision to live (almost) without a car, but please spare me the hypocrisy of these car free days.
They're an environmental disaster rather than an eye opener.
Ok, then that was information I didn't have... That means the version of CarFreeDay in Belgium is different from most other parts of the world where I have seen it... As I said here in Sweden some cities have a permanent car free zone, and might or might not extend it for a day, but it never means fine's... It's just a question of having a legitimate errand and you get in, if not go park outside... Driving in the permanent car free zone however is very heavily fined, all days of the year... And you really, really have to want that fine since you have to work at it a while to get in there...

Also what you say is that since you live in the city centre you have to take your car outside so it's not parked in the city for the car free day? That's certainly whacked... Around her, just leave it parked, since the extended zone goes back to being one-way tomorrow... Also traffic out of the zone is OK, but you get a warning you won't be allowed in again that day...

And having extra public transport is definetly a way of turning it into a spectacle... Counter productive to say the least...

So, I'll apologise to you for that misconception and add my sympathy... That's not how it should work... That's not what the idea behind this thing is to begin with... And indeed that is minority imposing a will on the mayority in a way it shouldn't... However my opinion on Thymeclocks critique on the phenomenon as a whole still stands...
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:08 PM   #45 (permalink)
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For those of you who are still in denial or doubt that this is a movement motivated by a radical socialist agenda: (source)

Quote:
United Kingdom

Reclaim the Streets was originally formed in Brixton by Earth First! in London in Autumn 1991[4] and was born out of anti-road protest camps at places such as Claremont Road and Twyford Down. The idea of street reclaiming soon spread throughout the United Kingdom. The first actions can be seen as specifically anti-car and pro-alternative transport, but over the years the members of the core group changed its focus, realising that it was better to go to the root of the problem as they saw it, namely the capitalist system.[5] "Our streets are as full of capitalism as of cars and the pollution of capitalism is much more insidious."[6] Nevertheless, the actions always followed the principle of non-violent direct action.
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Old 09-28-2010, 01:01 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
For those of you who are still in denial or doubt that this is a movement motivated by a radical socialist agenda: (source)
I don't care why the first car free day was inaugurated, at the end a lot of people find it great and some may decide to do it more often which is great in my point of view.

Others examples are World Music Day, or European Heritage Days. Did you searched who initiated them in the world or in your area before participating ? Do you analyze how it's used politically ?

I don't care why you and others are ecomodders and hypermilers. At the end you are using fewer non renewable resources which helps the reason why I'm an ecomodder and an hypermiler. The same with the fact you decide to not drive your car once a year, once a month, once a week or anymore.

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Old 09-28-2010, 03:27 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Yes a bunch of anit car people started it - but that doesn't mean its some subversive plot to deny you of your freedoms. would you be slightly paranoid???

plus - a source is only as good as the person who writes it, and an empassioned person on any side of the fence is going to write to their view point aren't they. And people who are diluded are allowed there opinions too, if they get there similiarly diluded friends who happen to believe the same thing to vote - guess what, its call a democracy. with all the freedoms that come with it!
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Old 09-28-2010, 05:59 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The following is for those of you who are NOT anti-car, from http://www.pro-free-move.info/anti-car.htm:

People have various motives for behaving in the ways they do. The anti-car movement is a coalition of all sorts of people:

Some are ascetics , people who believe that pleasure is sinful. They are horrified or disgusted by the fact that cars can be beautiful, luxurious, and pleasurable to own and to drive. (Asceticism has been around for a very long time, in many forms. Some people adopt it as a strategy for coping with feelings of guilt about the success and prosperity of Western society - a success and prosperity in which we all share to a greater or lesser degree.)

Some are authoritarians who cannot stomach the freedom to go where we please, when we please, that the car has bestowed on us. There are many such people in the police.

Some are bureaucrats who see anti-car policies as a way of expanding their own powers and prerogatives.

Some are eco-fundamentalists , worshippers of Green, an ancient deity with a new name. To be opposed to technology, and technological solutions, is part of their religion. They oppose the car because it is one of the most visible and beneficial aspects of a technological society. If they got their way and cars were banned, they would start working towards a ban on something else technological. We cannot appease eco-fundamentalists, any more than our forefathers could appease Fascists in the 1930s.

Some are elitists who want to stop other people driving cars so that there will be more room on the roads for their own cars. They hope that taxes and tolls will price all the riff-raff off the roads.

Some are political extremists whose plans came to nothing when the Soviet Union collapsed and the Trades Unions were emasculated. They restored purpose to their lives by joining the anti-car movement.

Some are feminists who oppose the car because they see it as a symbol of masculine aggression and dominance. (They ignore the inconvenient fact that lots of women like cars, and some men don't.)

Some are grudge-bearers - a member of their family, or a friend of theirs, may have died or been injured in a road accident. Their reaction is understandable, and we should treat them sympathetically. But they are as misguided as if, on the basis of a bad experience with one person from Ruritania, they bore a grudge against all Ruritanians. Grudge-bearers often bear a burden of self-imposed guilt in addition to their grudge. They would like to offload this burden onto road-users. But their attempt is doomed to failure - ordinary human beings have no power to shoulder the burden of someone else's guilt. Other grudge-bearers, sad to say, are simply out for revenge.

Some are megalomaniacs , people who have a passion for grandiose schemes or isms that they want to inflict on everyone. Such people often rise to the top of bureaucracies and other organisations where there is little or no democratic check on them. Some of them, for all that we live in a democracy, become prominent politicians.

Some are narrow-minded people who want others to conform to their views and their behaviour. ("If I don't have a car, or if I use my car only in some particular way that suits me, why should anyone else be different?")

Some are neo-Malthusians , people who have half-understood the writings of Thomas Malthus. They hold the over-simplified view that growth and progress cannot be sustained and so must lead society towards disaster. Time and time again, what happens in the real world has given the lie to neo-Malthusian ideas.

Some are tax-and-spend politicians who see the motorist as the goose that lays the golden egg. They don't want to ban cars altogether, because that would be like killing the goose. Instead, they want the goose to lay bigger golden eggs, and lay them more often.

Some are the public transport lobby with a different hat on. They may earn their living from buses, trams and trains, or they may simply be enthusiastic about them. Self-interest, or misguided loyalty, makes them anti-car.

Some are riders on a gravy-train. This category includes:

* academic researchers and consultants who publish anti-car reports and recommendations;
* people who make a living out of installing and maintaining so-called traffic-calming measures;
* people who make a living out of manufacturing, marketing, installing and maintaining road-signs and other street furniture;
* people who make a living out of manufacturing, marketing, installing, operating and maintaining surveillance equipment.
* people who make a living out of carbon-trading and carbon-offsetting schemes.

Some are slaves of fashion. They oppose freedom of movement because it is unfashionable, and support anti-car policies because they are fashionable. There are many such people in the media, and some in politics.

Most anti-car campaigners belong to more than one of these categories, and they may or may not realise what their true motives are. For instance, many eco-fundamentalists are first and foremost authoritarians or political extremists.

Some anti-car campaigners are prime movers in their campaign; others are what Lenin described as useful idiots - people whose motives may be good but whose minds are blinkered, and who are manipulated and exploited by the prime movers. With a cynicism equal to that of Lenin, the more unscrupulous prime movers eagerly recruit children to their cause, and indoctrinate them so that they will serve as "useful idiots". Some of these cynics pretend that they espouse anti-car policies purely on the grounds of child welfare.
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Old 09-28-2010, 06:17 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I think I've been making up for missing carfree day this year. The Jeep hasn't been started or touched since Saturday, and will probably sit until Thursday night, as I simply haven't had anywhere off-campus to go.
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:28 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
...
Ok, so you have some valid arguments for why you dislike the phenomenon... But still... It's not all black and white...

I dislike a lot about what you just quoted... I still see it as positive to some extent... I will not try to make you feel otherwise...

A simple question though... Do you reasearch something you support as extensively and thoughout as this before supporting? I kind of doubt it, as you would then have a pretty hard time interacting in the world, as most people have ulterior motives or hidden agenda's...

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