Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-01-2012, 09:28 PM   #21 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,404

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 190
Thanked 2,751 Times in 2,155 Posts
If you know nearly all your needs will fit in a trailer that wont exceed whats safe for the vehicle then why not?

I cant do that with a car, up to 600lb of tools to include a few spare tires, a 12 foot ladder and still move building materials.

Altho I have considered using the camaro for pulling light loads.
There was a good post on thirdgen.org about replacing the rear bumper bar with a steel class 3 reese hitch, will have to see if I can find it. The concept would work on most vehicles these day.

My trailer (which I have heavily modified, ha imigine that) weighs about 300lb and has no problem carring just shy of 1 ton of shingles or fire wood.
I plan to tear it apart and mod it some more at some point with in the next year.

__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 09-01-2012, 09:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,404

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 190
Thanked 2,751 Times in 2,155 Posts
Ultimate trailer hitches - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

See I'm thinking put a reese hitch like that on a car, but only use it for no more than 1,000lb total. Doesn't matter its a class 3 hitch, its not a class 3 trailer pulling vehicle.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 06:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 201
Thanks: 45
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Why is "horrible" fuel mileage for one decent vehicle that can do any of the work such a problem? Having more than one is not at all economical, especially low reliability used vehicles.
The numbers dont work. :P Financing on a new (to get that perfect reliability) dodge cummins that gets 15-23mpg out the door can tow everything, plus the additional costs of fuel are the killer. Parking the beast in the big city when downtown is nontrivial. It wont fit in the garage and it sticks out too far in the cul de sac if parked outside, even the Caprice is almost too long for outside but just fits in the garage fine. And it still fails to solve the "we need two people to go in two different directions" problem entirely. Two vehicles for two people is a no brainer if you need to do two things at the same time.

My daily college commute depending on certain other electives will range from a minimum possible 50mi up to 100mi/day. Additional weekly "must do" trips (parent in nursing home type stuff) an extra 200mi/week. So from 2000-3000mi/month ABSOLUTE MINIMUM not possible to do any less. This is miles best done by the cheapest method possible.
Geo Metro 50mpg = 40-60gal/month
Saturn 40mpg = 50-75gal/month
Caprice/diesel pickup 23mpg = 87-130gal/month

At $4/gallon i'm spending an extra $200-300/month in fuel (worse when prices go up) to drive the caprice/diesel pickup instead of using the Saturn for those commuting miles. Add to this the finance cost of a new truck to assuage fears of reliability and... where am I saving all that money to drive just this?

To use a saturn instead of a metro is an extra $40-60/month in gasoline. If it was only gasoline cost it'd be worth it - but the metros are not as reliable as the saturn, esp the one I have hyper maintained since almost new. I'd expect any money saved on gasoline would be paid out on maintenance. I have a limit of 2.5 vehicles in my parking slot. (one in garage, one outside of garage, enough extra storage for a motorcycle and folding 4x8 trailer) When i'm hoping to use a little 125cc cycle as often as possible (whenever dry and not too cold) for at least the college commute (which is all doable thru town for only a few miles out of the way) the advantages of an "extra metro" don't pay for itself. Even if I could take a 250cc cycle on the weekly mandatory visit that would often but not always be a carpool of 1-3 other people as well so again doesn't work out.

Now lets look at towing stuff. Most things are gettable with a 4x8 trailer, opportunistic cost means I need something I can pick up 4x8 sheets of anything on a regular basis. Most loads are takeable by the Saturn, whose aero will get the mileage. Most loads are under 3000lbs.

The loads that are not - could potentially vary all the way up to 7000-10,000lbs. They could even (eventually) get over 10k for best efficiency but the additional hassles of CDL licensing, commercial trailer licensing, the size of the tow vehicles (cannot park in town) probably makes it not worth it. Besides I CAN have a third heavy tow only vehicle out at the farm that most things would end up delivered too. When the numbers say it's worth going to the farm, to pick up the truck, to haul it in one trip instead of three i'll do that.

Truly bulk loads (cubic yards of perlite, sand) are best delivered by semis, I can't figure out a cost-per-yard that matches what they charge even at $3/mile plus the hassle of 10 trips instead of someone else doing it all. So what I need is a vehicle for Less Than Truckload amounts, to pick up things my self, ie 1-2 pallets of whatever usually, for the times when waiting for a pool truck to run thru my area takes too long (certain bulk shipments), costs too much (my leg too far off the desired path), or even moreso to get items of opportunity (someone in iowa selling a wrecked chevy pickup with a documented rebuilt 6.2 diesel for $800? I'm on my way...) with a short time window, for things that are only worth getting if the total acquisition cost is low enough. Including what it costs to keep around such a tow vehicle when not towing stuff.) Although I expect 20k of commuting per year for school and similar, actual tow duty of anything would probably be under 7000 miles/year. However if I start being able to fuel it off SVO and have more "free" plant fuel than I know what to do with i'll start driving the tow vehicle more regularily. (this is what would justify/pay for the 6.2 into a Caprice/Fleetwood swap btw)

The two parking places are free whether I use them or not. There is zero downside of a second vehicle. But a third vehicle (outside a cycle) in town flat out isn't possible, renting an outdoor parking space or storage garage is like $100/month. My biggest question then is WHICH two vehicles - i'm trying to do as much as possible with two vehicles - mileage commuting, mileage under tow, and max weights possible under tow, because most things would be sourced from where I am in the city, even if they go up to a farm/ranch which it's now looking is going to be more like 300 miles away. (instead of the 80 originally envisioned, as someone is bailing on their commitment so we have to look for cheaper land, and this makes mileage while towing even MORE important, not needing to run up on an extra trip to grab a heavy haul vehicle from there, hauling as much weight as possible within the mileage class - ie trips up with the Saturn even more preferable than the Caprice, etc etc)


I might just find that certain weights even factory rated (7000lbs on the Fleetwood) are beyond my comfort zone as well, leading me to scale things back. There are people a little nervous hauling 3.5 tons with a 1/2 ton pickup afterall - I wont know til I try it. I don't plan to just jump into megaweight, i'll scale up how much I pull deliberately until i'm more comfortable with it, seeing how it handles. It's possible even if I CAN I will choose not to because it doesnt feel safe. Yet I also remember when my dad hauled 17 TONS of scrap steel on a triple axle with his half ton pickup, not asking how much the relatives had piled into the trailer at all and who only commented "it seemed a little heavy" through the hills yet never had problems controlling it because he was used to farm duty and making do with what he had basing control off what he felt rather than someone's numbers... i've often thought the seasonal RV'er who only does two hauls a year with his quad slide once to the park and once back is a much less safe driver, even with the truck rated for it, than the guy who tows pretty regularily. Plus testing and tuning of the trailer like my CAD friend does where he actually designed in spring rates and extra firm sidewall tires and some other modifications to the trailer itself so his Saturn felt more comfortable than the SUV he was using before pulling it.

So all that being said, just call this a research project. I think i've done a pretty good job of narrowing down vehicle choice, and an aeromodded gooseneck HD/SD type diesel 1/2 ton may yet still end up being the 2nd in garage vehicle afterall. (a 3/4 ton with taller tires and ride height is just a bit too much, for van or pickup i've noticed) But even in that case, "reliability" will probably be built in by using rebuilt components and such to keep total acquisition cost down.

--

PS - i've considered CNG vehicles, the miles per year of that vs the cheapness of the fuel about make it pay for itself. The problem is that CNG pickups have a substantially derated towing ability (like 4500lbs) meaning now they CANT pull all I need, limited bed space due to the big CNG tank there, still get "pickup mileage" (yeah my fuel costs 1/3 as much as gas, but with 1/2 the mileage, where am I saving all that money for the $10-15k extra I spend for a CNG vehicle again not to mention home refueling??) plus I can't refuel far away from home - my radius of service means it would suck as a tow vehicle. CNG for daily use - possible. But only if the price of home refuelers comes down, or my daily mileage use goes up. (the latter is possible with certain business projects which could raise my monthly miles up to 4000 or even 5000/mi month however, in that case i've already decided - CNG)

PPS - the best case future scenario is i'm growing all the plant fuel I need for very little marginal cost. (one purpose on the farm is to explore some SVO based growing systems) In that case both the Saturn and the Caprice/Fleetwood get converted to diesel, and the marginal cost per gallon is probably less than CNG by that point anyway. It's easier to haul extra, I can still run normal fuel when needed, and again - both get better mileage than a pickup will unless i'm routinely exceeding a 7000lb rated limit for hauling and expect it to continue regularily. There IS a case where the numbers say "get a newer, beefier, diesel pickup ASAP" but unless or until I run into it i'm not planning on chasing it.

Last edited by stillsearching; 09-04-2012 at 07:01 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 10:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 2,442

2004 CTD - '04 DODGE RAM 2500 SLT
Team Cummins
90 day: 19.36 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,422
Thanked 731 Times in 553 Posts
Okay, you've got a lot of "stuff" floating around. But don't forget insurance, taxes, maintenance, repairs and the energy necessary to remember what vehcle needs what. Gasoline just seems like a high cost, when an all-around appraisal can show a different outcome.

I'd look for a first gen Dodge Cummins (1989-1993) and focus my efforts there. It can do all you're looking to do, and do it better (potentially) than the routes you've mapped thus far. They are complicated, and, IMHO, unnecessary, where one not-perfect vehicle trumps several vehicles shoved into abstract slots.

.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 11:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,404

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 190
Thanked 2,751 Times in 2,155 Posts
A 6.2 is the only thing that can burn diesel, SVO, propane/natural gas and alcohol.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 07:47 AM   #26 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Another possibility that I don't think I've seen mentioned: rent a vehicle (e.g., U-haul) for the rare occasions in which more than typical capacity is needed. I'm not sure I understand your scenarios well enough to know if that works for you, but it can work for a lot of people.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 06:10 PM   #27 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 201
Thanks: 45
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
But don't forget insurance, taxes, maintenance, repairs and the energy necessary to remember what vehcle needs what.
None of those exceed hundreds of dollars per month in fuel alone to commute with something I can't park downtown without going 9 blocks away in winter. Insurance is like $15-30/month per extra car where I am (maybe because I drive old vehicles like this), were exceptionally low. But twice you've missed the "3 people in house hold, going in three different directions" comment for why i'm going to end up having two anyways and how a 3/4 ton is too tall for in the garage and too long to park outside so there's not much else I can say. :-/ If I move to a different place with parking I will reconsider the recommendation - those early cummins were the first on my list for the 2nd vehicle until I found one 2 inches too tall to fit in the garage.

I might go with a Cummins ENGINE if the money makes itself available, like a 4bt in a Caprice, but the pickup the 6bt comes in naturally will just not work out right now.

In the worst case a third vehicle out at the farm just has to be picked up alot more often from some distance away making it impossible for certain loads to pay for themself even if given for free. :P

Hell I might even put a Caprice station wagon on a pickup frame - I saw someone do that, would be caprice aero and the toughness of the truck chassis rated for those weights. But i'm pretty sure that what i'm sitting in will be a car if I can do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
A 6.2 is the only thing that can burn diesel, SVO, propane/natural gas and alcohol.
Can you expand? Are you referring to running off the other fuels solely? Or was it a clever way of saying a dual tank start on diesel, run on SVO system, with power adders? >_> Will other IDI engines like Mercedes not do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrs View Post
Another possibility that I don't think I've seen mentioned: rent a vehicle (e.g., U-haul) for the rare occasions in which more than typical capacity is needed. I'm not sure I understand your scenarios well enough to know if that works for you, but it can work for a lot of people.
It's too much towing to have renting usually pay, and not enough to justify a full time rig. Another part of my ignored argument was wanting to get into SVO fuel as cheaply as possible in the future - a 6.2 swap will pay for itself, the extra $5000 to stick a Cummins in there and get maybe a few more mpg... probably not. Not enough additional fuel savings to break even I mean, within any reasonable future period.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 10:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,404

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 190
Thanked 2,751 Times in 2,155 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
A 6.2 is the only thing that can burn diesel, SVO, propane/natural gas and alcohol.
This applies to all IDI diesels.

The 6.2L/6.5L can burn WVO and SVO unmodified if you cut in at lower concentrations during warmer weather. Some people have good luck running 2 tanks of fuel.

Propane and natural gas can be added to the intake air, they are said to help burn up SVO/WVO.
Fumigation can be used to increase fuel milage and increase power.
You will have to be careful with propane and turbochargers. Its recomended that you cut off the propane above some where around 5psi.
Natural gas has much better resistance to detonation.

Alcohol can be ran in the engine with a water injection system and can boost power and fuel economy.
Methanol has best resistance to detonation and is cheapest.

__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com