Toyota GT86/Scion FRS 4dr sedan hybrid, maybe wagon too!

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

If this platform is going to remain less expensive than the Lexus, and is going to have the advantages from the Subaru Boxer engine, it might still have strong sales arguments.

Uh, I called it the "Lexus IS" platform, but it's sold under the Toyota brand in other parts of the world, esp. Asia.

Originally Posted by cbaber

My whole point is to not attach 4 doors, a diesel engine, or a hybrid system to a name that represents such a great history for sports cars. The only reason they are doing this is because a 4 door will sell better than a coupe in today's market. For the people that respect what the Toyota 86 represents, it's shameful.

There's no problem with a hybrid system. Think of it as a mini torque boost at the bottom end, along with a super efficient alternator. Doesn't affect the driving experience.

[Mutt_78]

Originally Posted by cbaber

That would be even worse. The point here is that Toyota and many other car companies today chose to ruin the heritage and tradition of some car brands simply to sell a few thousand more cars.

The FR-S, or Toyota 86, is the spiritual successor to the AE86. It also has ties with the 2000GT and 800. This is a long and proud line of front engine, RWD, sport coupes. For Toyota today, it represents a major shift back to a traditional sports car.

My whole point is to not attach 4 doors, a diesel engine, or a hybrid system to a name that represents such a great history for sports cars. The only reason they are doing this is because a 4 door will sell better than a coupe in today's market. For the people that respect what the Toyota 86 represents, it's shameful.

Hmmm. You're "master Eco-modder" status makes everything you said here sound like an idiocy. If you truly cared about the "essence" of some sports car, you would drive a miata, or an 86, and you wouldn't be on a forum specifically tailored to people pushing economy to the furthest possible consumer limits. Toyota sees that economy is quickly becoming the name of the game. Thus why the supra is probably coming back (based on Toyota renewing the supra trademark last year, with the copyright only lasting till 2015) and the fact that they need a omething to compete with the new HYBRID NSX. If you want to get angry about a cars lineage being soiled, think about that for a second. A hybrid NSX. The poor mans super car getting the underpinnings of something much less... super.

Selling cars is NOT about upholding the essence of something so distant. More cars are sold in the name of PROgression, rather than REgression.

[Allch Chcar]

When they say "GT86/FRS/BRZ" they are talking about the ZN6 platform. They are using the model name as a sort of brand. Which was Tada-san's intended goal from the beginning. In all likelihood, it will be named similar enough but differentiated.

Myself, I am not opposed to the RWD sedan idea. I'm more interested in whether they make the hatch or not. My opinion on making it a hybrid will depend on how the hybrid system is implemented. I can think of a number of ways this could end in failure or disgrace, such as dropping the MT. They need to maintain the Sports car image without neutering it for a sedan.

The convertible was put on hold but I believe the sedan or the shooting brake style hatchback has a chance. I have heard anything about a proper wagon, unless you just mean a 5 door hatch.

[minispeed]

I also heard years ago that they were working on a rwd manual transmission "halo" car for the prius line up. So there is a chance it might not wear the FR-S/GT86 name.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by minispeed

I also heard years ago that they were working on a rwd manual transmission "halo" car for the prius line up.

The Prius actually has some good aerodynamics. BTW there was a racing version presented recently in Japan...

[minispeed]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

The Prius actually has some good aerodynamics. BTW there was a racing version presented recently in Japan...

Great aerodynamics that is great for performance use and going fast, but to those not in the know (ie most people who buy cars) the prius shape has now been associated with effeciency and slowness. For a halo car to re-establish the brand image it needs to break with the wedge shape.

Even the talks about the genIV that is coming in about a year say the shape is going to be less wedge like.

The racing version was also a hatch, even though Hot Hatches have been growing in popularity lately in North America, and it was awd, a rwd sedan is a much better halo car and can probably be built and sold at a higher profit.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by minispeed

Great aerodynamics that is great for performance use and going fast, but to those not in the know (ie most people who buy cars) the prius shape has now been associated with effeciency and slowness. For a halo car to re-establish the brand image it needs to break with the wedge shape.

Even the talks about the genIV that is coming in about a year say the shape is going to be less wedge like.

I certainly would not buy a Prius that had a higher Cd than the previous model. It is right that form should follow function.

[serialk11r]

Unfortunately in a lot of people's eyes, non-aerodynamic shapes are beautiful. Look at the new Z4, the tail keeps getting shorter and the hood keeps getting longer. I saw someone complain that the Porsche 981 has a taller tail than the 987 (which had horrible aerodynamics). Or SUV buyers, they want sharp edges and box shapes that don't taper. The taller the better.

[cbaber]

Originally Posted by Mutt_78

Hmmm. You're "master Eco-modder" status makes everything you said here sound like an idiocy. If you truly cared about the "essence" of some sports car, you would drive a miata, or an 86, and you wouldn't be on a forum specifically tailored to people pushing economy to the furthest possible consumer limits. Toyota sees that economy is quickly becoming the name of the game. Thus why the supra is probably coming back (based on Toyota renewing the supra trademark last year, with the copyright only lasting till 2015) and the fact that they need a omething to compete with the new HYBRID NSX. If you want to get angry about a cars lineage being soiled, think about that for a second. A hybrid NSX. The poor mans super car getting the underpinnings of something much less... super.

Selling cars is NOT about upholding the essence of something so distant. More cars are sold in the name of PROgression, rather than REgression.

If car companies don't care about honoring their past, why do they create spiritual successors to their famous cars? It is important. You might not care, but there are those that do. And for people like me it's a shame to see marketing departments soil a name that represents a significant part of the companies history. Challenger, Camaro, Mustang, etc. These are all cars that stick to what the name represents. They have a loyal following of people that care about what those names mean.

Honda CRZ and Honda NSX are examples of progression in a car. In the 1990's the NSX was advanced with an aluminum body, variable valve timing, and handling unlike any production car at that time. The new NSX is going after the same thing. Technology that hasn't been seen before in a super car that is made to be daily driven. The CRZ is much different from the CRX, but anyone can see how Honda tried to recreate a CRX for modern times, with efficiency and fun in mind. They chose not to use the CRX name, but their intentions are clear.

What is not progression is taking a car Toyota intended to be a spiritual successor the the AE86, adding a couple doors and new power train. Why even call it an 86 or FR-S? When you make those changes it's a different car. I'm not saying that it would be a bad car, I'm questioning why it needs the 86 name. Call it a new name. If names don't mean anything, why use something that represents the past? If it's suppose to be progression, why not find a new name to represent the change?

I'm not going to guess how old you are, but trust me when I say that things from your past represent a lot of things. You'll continue to appreciate the movies, music, cars, and things you had when you were young as you get older. To the younger generation it seems silly, but only you know what it represents. It would be like if Metallica started selling rap albums instead of rock. Names and history have meaning, and it isn't always appropriate to change things around.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Unfortunately in a lot of people's eyes, non-aerodynamic shapes are beautiful.

Aerodynamics don't define how beautiful a vehicle can be. I have seen ugly vehicles in different shapes...