Volt may become a parallel hybrid

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...I was bad-mouthing the "...delay..." it takes for GM to finally get around to importing decent vehicle bodies to USA, but seemingly forgeting about the decent engines too, ie: if there's an EPA-blessed 1.0L engine, *why* can't it be obtained in USA cars? etc.

...seems like GM is fixated on USA = HP (and nothing else), while the rest of the world has a much, much wider "pick list" of available engines, transmissions and combinations there of.

...some USA models cannot be had with anything BUT an automatic transmission!

Ahh, I see now. Read twice, post once Arra you old muppet

I think we tapped about this before.

As an outsider to the US seems strange reading EM (and loads of other car nut sites) that GM (and Ford / Chrysler and the other makers) don't seem to get the message that people there may actually want to buy the more economical, albeit less powerful models sold elsewhere. Then again maybe thats why GM are in so much trouble.

There seem to be loads of forums on Geo Metros (and all the other versions) so they must have sold quite a few. Maybe they didn't learn that lesson, or choose to ignore it. We get a 1.2 economical Aveo for example, in the US its a 1.6.

A Cruze Diesel is on my 'to be tested' list. Interestingly though the UK Chevrolet site has a widget which tries to pursuade me that I don't really want a Diesel, I want a Chevvy (aka Daewoo) Spark - which looks quite nice...



But is not a Diesel, and I want a Diesel. Or a hybrid. Maybe.

[MadisonMPG]

I don't want the underpowered gas car here, and I don't want the "overpowered" gas car either... I want the turbo diesel one.

*that statement goes for every turbo diesel we don't get over here*

[bwilson4web]

Well I'll just go down to the GM dealer on Monday and take a Volt for at test drive. We'll settle once and for all what the Volt really is.

Thanks!
Bob Wilson
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VAPORWARE!

Look, it is silly to inflate this latest of a long series of GM "greenwash" press releases. GM is notorious for believing that hybrid owners or fuel efficient drivers and owners are wooly-headed. To the extent that we take any of their press releases as anything beyond . . . 'acetone in gasoline' 'brown gas generators' 'magnetic gas line do-dads' or 'turbo vane' shams shames everyone who swallows their nonsense.

Look, I'm still looking for a two-mode to test drive . . . fortunately I did in January 2009 . . . the Saturn VUE 'two-mode' and it has melted away with the Detroit snow.

Seriously, there should be a forum called "Frauds" so nonsense like "brown gas generators" and other frauds, including the Volt, can reside. It has no mass! It has no reality on the show room floor, the true and ultimate proving ground.

Bob Wilson
How many times does GM have to pull away the ball?

[Arragonis]

Managed to get a reasonable 'go' in a Cruze diesel yesterday afternoon - hope its OK to post impressions here.

The first immediate impression I had was that it is smaller than I was expecting on the outside, I hadn't noticed one on the road before. The second impression was that the interior is a blatant attempt to copy the current European Honda Civic, but (and maybe this is just my opinion) it does it better. The build quality on the interior of the current Civic is not all that good, this isn't perfect but is less as cheap looking and fewer rattles.

The Diesel engine is as smooth and as quiet as most CR Diesels these days. Standing outside (it was running before we got in) there was only the slightest diesel noise at tickover. I fiddled with the trip computer and reset the MPG before setting off. Not scientific I know

Quick blast round the Bypass (sort of mini motorway) at speed. There is little lag at all, the engine remains distant although there is a gruff roar at higher RPM. No smoke visible on full chat and plenty of go uphills and at (ahem) speeds above 80. Performance is close to a VW 140 and it felt as good and more refined. Ave MPG read 41 at the other end of the bypass.

On the trip back a bit more ecodriving. The gearchange felt very nice. The engine will happily take the next gear on the flat at roughly 1K and holds a steady speed on a light throttle. I tried a bit of P&G and it works well on the G part - probably better if the big nose was blocked off more. Weight and momentum help here but the P bit seems to put no strain on the engine at all.

Wind and road noise were very well controlled for a smaller car, the ride was good but not perfect on some broken roadway surfaces. Handling not as good as a French car, say a Megane or C4, but as good as a Golf for most people. It rolled quite a bit (mind you I drive a hot hatch every day) but grips well - the dealer guy was happy to 'hard corner' it on a roundabout with confidence.

Ave MPG at the end of the journey was 51, and that was with only a little ecodriving effort (none at all on the way out).

So I would give it a 7/10 overall.

Would I buy one ? Possibly although not ever new. The best deal I could get was around 15K GBP for a new one with a trade in. Compare that to a dealer price in the states and look at the exchange rate and then explain to me why ? But Chevrolets as a brand is not strong and they lose so much value in the first year it is just not worth the risk. But the same is true of their main competition which is the Kia C'EED (aka Top Gear's new sensible priced car) and the Hyundai i30 which also comes as an estate.

Objectively it is as good as the established market players here (as is the Kia and Hyundai) but they have an image issue, so most people would go conventional and buy a Ford, GM*, Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, VW, Skoda, SEAT equivalent unless the deal you get is really super good.

Next test will be the i30 or the C'EED. But that will wait until after my hols.


*EDIT - Just for completeness, Chevrolet is not sold as the main GM brand here - that is Vauxhall (Opel in the rest of Europe) which sell very similar (in some cases identical) cars to Chevrolet. In other words they have to compete against themselves.

[user removed]

Small engine, electric supercharger for the less than 1% when you need more power, and a launch assist rear axle for regenerative energy capture, and P&G lower speed cruising.

Mileage benefits of a hybrid without the complexity and cost.

I wonder if GM did this to save their financial arses, or if they were just dumb enough to find it out by ignoring their fundamentally flawed research and development.

regards
Mech

[Rokeby]

I'm with Bob Wilson on this. I stopped following Chevy's Volt some time ago.
-- Oops, they want to be called Chev-ro-lay in the US market, but the
website for Spanish language TV ads says 'chevy" They lost my
confidence when something changed, well it wasn't daily, but is was monthly.

The attempt to get the car recognized as a non-hybrid was laughable, the
mileage claims highly suspect, the shenanigans over the slight of hand on
loan repayment was sleaziness at its worst. And now just what will the power
train be anyway? Who's in charge here, the tots in the corporate daycare
center?

If Chebby was dating your teen age daughter, you'd throw his a$$ out of the
house.

If Chebby was trying to sell you investments, you'd say pack your bag and
get the hell out.

If Chebby was trying to sell you a house, you'd walk out and never go back.

I can't say whether or not there will ever be Volt in the dealership. But, if there
is, it will have to be better than good, better even than damned good by
popular conscensus for me even to consider it. And even still I'll be
wondering if the car like the company is untrustworthy in the long run.

I think they should try some rebranding and change their name to
"Cheat-o-lay."

And then there's this:
GM gives $6.66 million in stock to its top executives | Detroit Free Press

I don't think another cup of coffee is going to help my attitude any.

[RobertSmalls]

Rather than creating a new thread that would surely turn into a Volt-bashing, I'll bump this old one.

The Volt, G.M.’s Plug-In Car, Gets a $41,000 Price Tag

Before the tax credit, that's $41000 for the Volt, versus $32780 for the Leaf. I know which one I'd rather have.

Although some Volts will be delivered in some markets this year, you might not be able to buy one until some time in 2012: "G.M. plans to build 10,000 Volts by the end of 2011 and 30,000 in 2012, and most dealers expect a waiting list."

The Volt is no EV2. Still, I'll be watching with a mixture of fascination and disgust.

[gone-ot]

...IMHO the Volt is nothing more than a re-incarnated EV1 'smoke & mirrors' exercise done soley for Government edification, it certainly does NOT look like it was done for the general motoring public.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

Rather than creating a new thread that would surely turn into a Volt-bashing, I'll bump this old one.

The Volt, G.M.’s Plug-In Car, Gets a $41,000 Price Tag

Before the tax credit, that's $41000 for the Volt, versus $32780 for the Leaf. I know which one I'd rather have.

Although some Volts will be delivered in some markets this year, you might not be able to buy one until some time in 2012: "G.M. plans to build 10,000 Volts by the end of 2011 and 30,000 in 2012, and most dealers expect a waiting list."

The Volt is no EV2. Still, I'll be watching with a mixture of fascination and disgust.

AND, it doesn't qualify for the AT-PZEV credit in California. I wonder how many they're really going to sell. 10,000 units may be optimistic.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...IMHO the Volt is nothing more than a re-incarnated EV1 'smoke & mirrors' exercise done soley for Government edification, it certainly does NOT look like it was done for the general motoring public.

Actually the Volt is the "Precept," the last GM 'Power Point' design submitted to the Al Gore program, Partnership for Next Generation Vehicle. That program was defunded and replaced by the Hydrogen Fool Cell program in 2001. The program goal was a car that could achieve 80 MPG.

The EV1 worked well enough which is probably why it was crushed. The Leaf has more EV1 but the Tesla is really what the EV1 could have become. Regardless, there is one bit of good news . . . GM killed their "mild hybrids" the same month Bob Lutz retired.

GM charged $4,000 extra for a Malibu "mild hybrid" to add ~4 MPG, not even into the 30 MPG range. What a fraud!

Personally, I don't think GM will ever become a serious player until every one of Bob Lutz's hires and direct reports retires. GM was and remains frozen in old technology and old technology thinking. GM will need a new breed of engineers and engineering management and that is not yet evident.

Bob Wilson