What happened to the vapor thread?

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Then there is no reason to not post your achievements.

regards
Mech

And, there is very good reason NOT to post some of our work. People criticize my posts because they cannot follow what I have written. So, they criticize me for not posting my work. But, that work allows me a very comfortable lifestyle and a set of shares in a future endeavor that has much risk but much reward. Why would I risk that future on Ecomodder? However, there is much to play around with that does not interfere with my non-disclosure agreements. I am free to talk about general science and applications. If you see no value in that, I am sorry. I can only simplify so much before it becomes drivel. And, this week, I will hear from our legal department what I can disclose about work I helped with almost two decades ago while testing with HHO augmented engines. There really isn't much ado. You cannot "double your mileage" like the scammers claim. But, you can change the thermochemistry of the combustion reaction and contract the burn so as to extract more work from the fuel. If you can see how much of the fuel heat is lost to the environment you can see how combustion contraction can be very beneficial. And, you can see how partnering this technology with the above idea of a high enthalpy engine can be beneficial.

[Grant-53]

This is why I keep my textbooks on thermodynamics. A wise man does know when to share and when to keep quiet. When Smokey Yunnick was explaining his engine to the Detroit engineers, he had his lawyer present. I have worked at more than one job where cameras were banned.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Grant-53

This is why I keep my textbooks on thermodynamics. A wise man does know when to share and when to keep quiet. When Smokey Yunnick was explaining his engine to the Detroit engineers, he had his lawyer present. I have worked at more than one job where cameras were banned.

. . . are open for all to use today.

I really think there is enough of a skill set here on Ecomodder to duplicate the work of Smokey and bring it up to date if there wasn't such a stigma against anything in the Unicorn Corral. Many things need to be in the Corral and deservedly so, but some items warrant a look and some investigative builds. Hot vapor engines are one of them. A simple bubble through vapor system would have been informative. Additional improvements would have given us even more insight. Heating the fuel makes the vapor capable of adding to the enthalpy. Heating the air is the next logical step. Of course, at this point, detonation can become a problem depending on the engine parameters. We can then explore the lean burn characteristics of hot fuel vapors. I truly think this is the "efficiency gains" people stumble upon when doing the investigation and attribute the gains to some hocus pocus or fringe science. We don't question the Honda Crowd's ability to run their engines at 22:1 Air to Fuel ratio. Let's see if a hot vapor engine can exceed that, and by how much.

[user removed]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

And, there is very good reason NOT to post some of our work. People criticize my posts because they cannot follow what I have written. So, they criticize me for not posting my work. But, that work allows me a very comfortable lifestyle and a set of shares in a future endeavor that has much risk but much reward. Why would I risk that future on Ecomodder? However, there is much to play around with that does not interfere with my non-disclosure agreements. I am free to talk about general science and applications. If you see no value in that, I am sorry. I can only simplify so much before it becomes drivel. And, this week, I will hear from our legal department what I can disclose about work I helped with almost two decades ago while testing with HHO augmented engines. There really isn't much ado. You cannot "double your mileage" like the scammers claim. But, you can change the thermochemistry of the combustion reaction and contract the burn so as to extract more work from the fuel. If you can see how much of the fuel heat is lost to the environment you can see how combustion contraction can be very beneficial. And, you can see how partnering this technology with the above idea of a high enthalpy engine can be beneficial.

Having my own patent issued, I think you might understand that I know the process. Whether you choose to believe it or not is a problem that COULD exist within your own mind. Non Disclosure Agreements are required before you file a completed application and before, during and after the provisional application, which is supposed to precede the complete application by one year. So basically you are not at the point of having filed a completed application or NDAs would be unnecessary. Anyone can file a provisional application. My first one, a decade ago cost $100.

Not sure about the "20 year" term you are referring to when you mentioned waiting out the expiration date on previous patents (mine is 17.5 years). Assuming that is a fact (the 20 year term), it presents serious hurdles to overcome to surpass the rejection criteria of "obvious to someone educated in the art" as well as the "novelty" rejection criteria as well as the legal requirement for the applicant to disclose to the Patent Office any relevant information, that they uncover, at any time in the process, that could cause your own application to be rejected.

Actually "contracting the burn", assuming (again) your terminology is correct is the opposite of what Mazda is (and probably others are) doing with multiple injections after TDC where the burn is initiated then the pressure wave is "spread out" with multiple injections, after the combustion event has begun. The potential for preignition does not exist with high pressure injections of which a significant portion occur after ignition of the first of multiple injections.

Smokeys hot vapor setup is general knowledge today and any component has long passed any Patent protection time deadline. You state that transonic has problems, but you give nothing to support that position. I have no interest in transonic other than my belief that their system represents a significant step forward in the refinement process.

Also much risk means the potential for no reward and if you have no patent pending, you may never see one granted. There are even groups of foundation funded patent lawyers who will drag you through another legal nightmare, EVEN AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN GRANTED A PATENT, and have your patent rejected by a court process.

good luck with the process

Mech

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

Having my own patent issued, I think you might understand that I know the process. Whether you choose to believe it or not is a problem that COULD exist within your own mind. Non Disclosure Agreements are required before you file a completed application and before, during and after the provisional application, which is supposed to precede the complete application by one year. So basically you are not at the point of having filed a completed application or NDAs would be unnecessary. Anyone can file a provisional application. My first one, a decade ago cost $100.

Not sure about the "20 year" term you are referring to when you mentioned waiting out the expiration date on previous patents (mine is 17.5 years). Assuming that is a fact (the 20 year term), it presents serious hurdles to overcome to surpass the rejection criteria of "obvious to someone educated in the art" as well as the "novelty" rejection criteria as well as the legal requirement for the applicant to disclose to the Patent Office any relevant information, that they uncover, at any time in the process, that could cause your own application to be rejected.

Actually "contracting the burn", assuming (again) your terminology is correct is the opposite of what Mazda is (and probably others are) doing with multiple injections after TDC where the burn is initiated then the pressure wave is "spread out" with multiple injections, after the combustion event has begun. The potential for preignition does not exist with high pressure injections of which a significant portion occur after ignition of the first of multiple injections.

Smokeys hot vapor setup is general knowledge today and any component has long passed any Patent protection time deadline. You state that transonic has problems, but you give nothing to support that position. I have no interest in transonic other than my belief that their system represents a significant step forward in the refinement process.

Also much risk means the potential for no reward and if you have no patent pending, you may never see one granted. There are even groups of foundation funded patent lawyers who will drag you through another legal nightmare, EVEN AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN GRANTED A PATENT, and have your patent rejected by a court process.

good luck with the process

Mech

I would just like to point out that NDAs apply to more than patents. I am under an NDA as partner and employee. Employees and partners can be beholden to an NDA for a period of time well beyond the life process of a patent. Also, secrecy in process is often better than a patent if your product has a technological lifespan and the market is not ready for the technology. What good is getting a patent when you will not go to market immediately? Why get protection when market life will be far less than patent life? The problem with most inventors is that they are not market savvy and they waste energy procuring a patent that, as you are correct, only allows them their day in court - nothing more. There are dangers of someone torpedoing your patent if you wait, but that is why there are lawyers and firms that do nothing more than reverse engineer and rip apart the patents of others who's work may stand in the way. I know, I worked for such a firm. The investment group I work for does not tinker with this aspect. They hire a legal firm out of Burbank to provide advice and services. I simply put in a request for disclosure of information the group does not consider critical at this point. The tests we ran on HHO a couple decades ago have nothing to do with a patent. They were just for groundwork. However, the group paid for the data and they "own" the data. It looks like I can recreate the work for disclosure to others but I am waiting on a few specifics. Again, this will be for spark ignited gasoline engines.

As to Transonic's problems? Simply look at the tightrope they must walk to keep their system from falling off the super critical point or entering into the zone where the injector life is measured in seconds. Also, their 58% thermal efficiency claims are being pushed by diesel engines with piezo injectors and 30,000 psi working pressures to the tune of 52% thermal efficiency. Even if they overcome the complexity and reliability issues, their market lead may have all but dried up by the time they can introduce their tech.

And, contraction of combustion is most beneficial to the single combustion phasing of a spark ignited engine as it allows minimal ignition lead times and a resultant increase in thermal efficiency. As to how it works in multi-injection schemes in diesel cycle engines? I forward no comment.

[user removed]

I was talking about Mazdas sky-activ gasoline engine with multiple injections, which is gasoline and spark ignited. Preignition is impossible when you only introduce 20% of the total amount of fuel injected during each combustion stroke. They also stop the engine in a specific position so they can restart it without any other components to accomplsih stop start.

Not sure about the piezo electric statement since transonics design is the injector. I think the operating pressure at 30k is correct. The fact that Caterpillar has decided to support them is huge with an 80 billion corporation with worldwide markets providing the r&d funding for further refinement to address the issues you raise. Most inventions are rarely practical without further refinement.

As far as withholding patent applications, I'm sure you know the history of Bell's telephone patent which preceeded his competitors patent by 2 hours. To assume there will be no competitor who is following the same pathway risks loosing the opportunity, precisely what happened to Bell's competitor (the loosing the opportunity part). I would prefer to get my Patent then spend the time period of protection to obtain further patents for refinements and that is something I will not discuss or reveal.


regards
mech

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

I was talking about Mazdas sky-activ gasoline engine with multiple injections, which is gasoline and spark ignited. Preignition is impossible when you only introduce 20% of the total amount of fuel injected during each combustion stroke. They also stop the engine in a specific position so they can restart it without any other components to accomplsih stop start.

Not sure about the piezo electric statement since transonics design is the injector. I think the operating pressure at 30k is correct. The fact that Caterpillar has decided to support them is huge with an 80 billion corporation with worldwide markets providing the r&d funding for further refinement to address the issues you raise. Most inventions are rarely practical without further refinement.

As far as withholding patent applications, I'm sure you know the history of Bell's telephone patent which preceeded his competitors patent by 2 hours. To assume there will be no competitor who is following the same pathway risks loosing the opportunity, precisely what happened to Bell's competitor (the loosing the opportunity part). I would prefer to get my Patent then spend the time period of protection to obtain further patents for refinements and that is something I will not discuss or reveal.


regards
mech

You are correct about the Mazda SkyActiv System. It uses multiple hole injectors but I am not seeing where the gasoline engine uses multiple injection events. I am looking at the Mazdausa.com website. Digging up the Greencarcongress.com summary of the Mazda report to the JSAE in 2011 states that one parameter to achieving their goals was:

"The combustion duration was also reduced. Faster combustion shortens the time the unburned air-fuel mixture is exposed to high temperatures, which enables normal combustion to conclude before knocking occurs."

If you can guide me to a reference for a multiple injection event, I would be glad to digest the info.

As to patent withholding and it's dangers, I will have to trust Legal about that. In the past, I have seen a battery of seemingly unrelated patents filed at one time. I suppose there is a strategy to it. But, it is beyond my simple agrarian upbringing.

And, I do hope Transonic succeeds. I can work around their success. Their patents relate to their system of heating the fuel before injection at several thousand PSI - not the 30,000 PSI some current systems are using. The injector tip heater is just the last push to achieve that critical "fourth phase" of matter.

[P-hack]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

As far as withholding patent applications, I'm sure you know the history of Bell's telephone patent which preceeded his competitors patent by 2 hours. T

Lol, patents, because 2 hours means you should have a codified monopoly on something, and you should always need government protection from competition for every thought in your head. /s

In the Corral, they are simply an excuse for hiding information, or an appeal to "authority".

ICE's are gonna get smaller as plug-in takes over, and with that power abstraction we are gonna finally see more turbines that don't waste energy on reversing pistons and dozens of other friction points. But not until we have milked the @#$@# out of the piston.

[user removed]

You don't need reversing pistons to accomplish compression and combustion and the piston in cylinder has survived any effort to render it obsolete for good reason. It represents the greatest volume for the smallest surface area which means lower heat transfer to the cylinder walls and it retains it's sealing capabilities through huge variations in operating temperature. 100 years ago the Rolls Royce Silver ghost would, on occasion, start after sitting overnight, without being cranked over, from the remaining compression.

Turbines require compounding which uses the exhaust heat to power another method of extracting energy from otherwise wasted heat energy. That is how a turbine can surpass the efficiency of the very large diesel engines, but it is only practical in stationary applications.

Best non compounded turbine efficiency is in the range of 35%.

Bottom line is get rid of the reciprocation, but retain the piston in cylinder configuration.

regards
mech

[P-hack]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

the piston in cylinder has survived any effort to render it obsolete for good reason.

I think there is a larger factor in the automotive world (certainly aircraft and many military vehicles sorted out turbines long ago), namely drive-ability. With the peaky output of a turbine it wasn't suited to driving like a car, but if most/all your torque is electrical then it is operated independently of the throttle and dependently on battery state of charge. Plus with very low moving parts count and weight and extreme reliability, it is a good match for electric.