What happened to the vapor thread?

[user removed]

triangle time.

regards
Mech

[mcrews]

Glad I never read the vapor thread.....

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by BobS

i"m new here but I would like to see some vapor carb research done here. If it proves to get great mileage, wonderful. But as I mentioned in a deleted post, if we keep this device even visible, someone will notice that it is one answer to the third world's need for extremely simple, extremely robust devices like the vapor carb which, as Youtube will be glad to show you, actually is an effective device.

A good carb tune is more important than having a miracle device.
Mechanical carburetor technology hit its peak in the late 1970s. Then it comes down to cold air versus warm air and tuning from there on.
If some one wants to help these carburetor stricken third world countries then they should invent a dirt cheap wide band O2 meter for tuning.
When I started using a wide band 02 meter and the advanced 100+ piece Edelbrock tuning rod, jet and spring set on my Camaro to tune its Edelbrock 650 with vacuum secondaries it was almost as good as fuel injection.
Its amazing what you can do with a carburetor when you go from just guessing to actually seeing whats going on and having the parts to do something about it.

I say to be able to do any successful fuel vaporing you have to master the carburetor or fuel injection on the vehicle to be experimented on first.

[deejaaa]

Originally Posted by mcrews

Glad I never read the vapor thread.....

i did. wish i hadn't.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

A good carb tune is more important than having a miracle device.
Mechanical carburetor technology hit its peak in the late 1970s. Then it comes down to cold air versus warm air and tuning from there on.
If some one wants to help these carburetor stricken third world countries then they should invent a dirt cheap wide band O2 meter for tuning.
When I started using a wide band 02 meter and the advanced 100+ piece Edelbrock tuning rod, jet and spring set on my Camaro to tune its Edelbrock 650 with vacuum secondaries it was almost as good as fuel injection.
Its amazing what you can do with a carburetor when you go from just guessing to actually seeing whats going on and having the parts to do something about it.

I say to be able to do any successful fuel vaporing you have to master the carburetor or fuel injection on the vehicle to be experimented on first.

But, there is value in the so called "miracle devices" if they have a basis in science. I had previously linked to the Smokey System and the Clackamas Vapor Carb. Old Mech linked to the Transonic Injector technology. These are not simple vapor carbs, but they point to the continued development in fuel systems. After you have improved fuel feed with carbs, injectors, and now direct injection and applied it to an over expanded engine, a designer needs to start looking for more efficiency and emissions advantage. The goverment has MANDATED 50+ MPG cars in 10 years. Does your "well tunded carb" have the ability to meet the requirements? I don't think so.

So it is with Ecomodders. We each have our interests and goals but fuel economy is what ties us together, and some of us are much more capable in the areas of engine development and controls. But, just like the manufacturers pushing the edge, engine development is going to be on the edge for most Ecomodders.

But, I do agree whole heartedly with you - you have to know what you are doing and have the tools to perform measurement and control.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Does your "well tunded carb" have the ability to meet the requirements? I don't think so.

The vehicle its self is 30 year old technology. So no.

If fuel vapor is the way to go then why has the fuel induction element been moving ever closer to the combustion chamber?

[user removed]

You will never see supercritical 450 degree fuel at diesel injection pressures mixed in any amount outside the combustion chamber. That is what transonic does and the combustion byproducts require no post combustion treatment to pass emissions.

Homogenous charge compression ignition without the need for a spark. Molecule by molecule evenly distributed in milliseconds, multiple injection pulses at peak combustion chamber pressures spreading out the "push" of expanison, allowing diesel high compression ratios and practically no currently regulated emissions to leave the combustion chamber and therefore no post treatment of exhaust emissions.

Billions have been spent in the pursuit of this goal and current and future emission regulations are irrelevant when they are not even close to a hurdle. They have come close, but the issue that came into prominence over 40 years ago and the solution will render any mileage requirements laughable.

The 60% efficient engine will become fact, even in displacements under .5 liter.

Gasoline powered cars under 3k in weight will achieve EPA ratings, not the ancient cafe ratings used in the requirements (mostly a joke), will get mileage in the 60-80 MPG rangewhen driven normally at 70 MPH with many accessories and their consequential power drains running as the are normally in almost every vehicle on US roads.

All of this does not even consider the 2006 statement by the EPA that mileage improvements of 80% will be achieved through powertrain improvemnets. This fact will increase fuel mileage, if implemented, above and beyond my prediction earlier in this post, with city mileages actually exceeding the highway prediction I just made.

With further aero improvements, if the manufacturers ever come to believe aero is beautiful and the brain washed publics thinking process is properly modified, then we will see, in my lifetime, cars averaging over 100 MPG easily, with no effort in that pursuit necessary by the driver of that car.

Come back in a decade and read that prediction and see how close I am to predicting the future, but you will never see it done while relying on air flow to accomplish that objective and if you ever came close you would be carrying a significant container of an explosive mixture, just waiting for an ignition source.

regards
Mech

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The vehicle its self is 30 year old technology. So no.

If fuel vapor is the way to go then why has the fuel induction element been moving ever closer to the combustion chamber?

Fuel mixture control has more benefit than fuel vapor in the immediate applications of need. Thus, throttle bodies gave way to port injection and then to direct injection. But, once injected directly into the combustion chamber, gasoline fuel has a tendency to form soot particulates. Now you are back to square one, with loss of efficiency and greater emissions. Some manufacturers are now exploring duel fuel deliver with both port as well as direct injectors to gain the benefits of both. I also pointed out in another thread that the work by companies such as Orbital of Australia has lead to manufacturers using air assisted injectors to gain even more fuel atomization. The next step is what pgfpro is suggesting - hot air assisted injection - to gain as close to a vapor state as possible while retaining the advantages of digital fuel injection.

This does not mean simply reaching a vapor state and feeding it into the engine will gain you fuel economy. I have touched on that with discussion of a high enthalpy engine. Enthalpy is a fancy word for the energy contained in a system including the work lost/gained by that system. This includes heat, pressure, temperature and kinetic energy as well as the internal energy of the gas molecules. Anything that gains you increased enthalpy before the combustion starts allows you to extract more work from the system.

The above, all makes more sense when you start going down the list of things that we already know help an engine's efficiency.

Higher compression increases the working fluid pressure, and gains us more efficiency.

A warm air intake gives us more heat and more efficiency - all else being equal.

An engine with large amounts of swirl and tumble in the combustion chamber design is more efficient than a lazy one. This is the kinetic energy addition to your system ( working fluid ).

Internal energy concepts can be more involved and complex, but let it be said that the vapor state is at a greater enthalpy level than fuel drops that will irreversibly absorb energy to reach a vapor state to completely burn. And trust me, modern engines burn 98% of the gasoline in the combustion chamber so a vapor state is not the issue. It is the loss of enthalpy in the forming of the vapors within the combustion chamber. A fuel already in vapor form does have an enthalpy advantage over a fluid form if only by a few percent.

So is it worth it to fool with vapor engines? I think so. If you add in all of the above and the thermochemical acceleration of the combustion event (combustion contraction).

Your work with turbo charging, pgfpro's build, dustyfirewalker's, and even soulcrusher's - they are all related by the idea of higher enthalpy combustion. In the deleted thread was a post I really want to add to the list - the build of the Metro engine with a Smokey heat engine induction system. Who ever that was, get your build up on a thread!

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

You will never see supercritical 450 degree fuel at diesel injection pressures mixed in any amount outside the combustion chamber. That is what transonic does and the combustion byproducts require no post combustion treatment to pass emissions.

...

regards
Mech

The tightrope balance Transonic's system has to maintain before the system fails is a fine one. Unfortunately for Transonic, they have not been able to deal with it and move to production. They have Caterpillar's backing and have been unable to produce.

Some of us already have super-critical systems that bypass Transonic's problems. We are just waiting on the core patents to expire.

[user removed]

Then there is no reason to not post your achievements.

regards
Mech