Why is Ethanol such a polarizing topic?

[roosterk0031]

Cobalt is quite happy drinking 100 proof, 120 was a little to strong or weak btu wise. Last 4 tanks about 39 average vs 45 mpg with E0.

Fuel needs to be volatile, liquids don't burn, fuel systems are sealed because of that and that gasoline vapor is a pollutant.

[RedDevil]

mmyeah, but my Insight does have a sealed fuel system and spillage recovery system and still it smells a tiny bit.
ANY car will have to cope with the vapor in the tank expanding and receding with temperature and other factors.
I could smell the ethanol. It did escape somehow. And it did less so when mixed with a tiny bit of water, even though the ethanol content was higher.

The tiny bit of water does not affect the combustability of the fuel. The fact that the fuel I tank is hydrogenated and still yields record FE in my car proves that.
Whisky is mostly water, yet even that burns.

I tested both hydrogenated and unhydrogenated ethanol, both work for me.
Please do test a hydrogenated blend and then come back to say it does not work, if it doesn't.
I value your opinion, but unless you tested with hydrogenated ethanol it is just an opinion.

[freebeard]

Why is water injection such a polarizing topic?

[RedDevil]

Let's polarize some more...

EU lawmakers deal a blow to crop-based biofuels | Reuters

Apparently using crops to make biofuel is a bad idea, unless...

Overweight People Now Outnumber Hungry People | Medical News Today

Must be noted that most hungry people are not hungry by their own free choice, so take this with caution.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Why is water injection such a polarizing topic?

Because water (H20) has a 104.5º "dipolar" polarization orientation?

[RedDevil]

Lets water this down a bit, it is just for binding the ethanol so it does not evaporate before it enters the combustion chamber.

There are two other reasons for having a tiny bit of water in the mixture;
- it is already there when you make ethanol, and hard to get the last bit out; leaving that saves a lot of energy;
- it apparently makes the ethanol not only less volatile but also less aggressive on light metals like aluminum.

It also has the same effect as water injection would have, but as the content percentage is quite low so is the impact.

[Allch Chcar]

Wait, Ethanol with water is less corrosive to mild metals than Pure Ethanol? Do you have some information on that behavior that you can share with us?

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Wait, Ethanol with water is less corrosive to mild metals than Pure Ethanol? Do you have some information on that behavior that you can share with us?

Sure. In the Wikipedia article on ethanol blends (very on topic btw!) is a hE15 section that refers to that. It even has a link reference to its scientific source, which sadly cannot be accessed. It has the wholemarks of truth, except the proof.

The experiments show that water in fuel ethanol inhibits dry corrosion.
At 10,000 ppm water in the E50 experiments by JARI and 3,500 ppm water in the E20 experiments by TU Darmstadt the alcoholate/alkoxide corrosion stopped. In the fuel ethanol this resembles 20,000 ppm or 2 volume% in the case of JARI and 5 x 3500 = 17,500 ppm of 1.75 volume% in the case of TU Darmstadt.

The observations are in line with the fact that hydrous ethanol is known for being less corrosive than anhydrous ethanol.
The reaction mechanism will be the same at lower-mid blends. When enough water is present in the fuel, the aluminum will react preferably with water to produce aluminum oxide, repairing the protective aluminum oxide layer, which is why the corrosion stops. The aluminum alcoholate/alkoxide does not make a tight oxide layer, which is why the corrosion continues.
In other words, water is essential to repair the holes in the oxide layer.
Based on the Japanese/German results, a minimum of 2 vol.% or 2.52% m/m water is currently proposed in the revision of the hydrous ethanol specification for blending in petrol at E10+ levels.

Water injection has additional positive effects on the engine performance (thermodynamic efficiency) and reduces overall CO2 emissions.

(Wikipedia on hE15)

Another reason lies in the particular properties of ethanol.
Just like water it has dipolar polarisation, and even just like water it does not really fit nicely onto other molecules of the same kind. That is why water actually expands when it freezes; it is forced to form bridges that don't match nicely with their dipolar properties.
But where the ethanol and water molecules dont line up nicely with their own kind, they do with each other; so well in fact that the resulting volume of the mixture is distinctly less than the total volume of the same stuff separated.

A 96% ethanol and 4% water mixture will contain ball like clusters of molecules consisting of a single water molecule surrounded by ethanol molecules, facing the water molecule with their O-H part. The other end of the ethanol (the -CH2-CH3 part) sticks outward and is relatively inert.

10 PM over here. Time to polarize the guts

[Allch Chcar]

Somehow I missed that section. And I've seen that page a dozen times at least. I recovered the abstract from Google's cache. Maybe somebody with an SAE membership has a copy or can get a copy, I dunno.

Abstract:

In 1999, some Japanese fuel suppliers sold highly concentrated alcohol fuels, which are mixtures of gasoline and oxygenates, such as alcohol or ether, in amounts of 50% or more. In August 2001, it was reported that some vehicle models using the highly concentrated alcohol fuels encountered fuel leakage and vehicle fires due to corrosion of the aluminum used for the fuel-system parts. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI) and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport Government of Japan (MLIT) jointly established the committee on safety for highly concentrated alcohol fuels in September 2001. The committee consisted of automotive technology and metal corrosion experts knowledgeable about preventing such accidents and ensuring user safety. Immersion tests were conducted on metals and other materials used for the fuel-supply system parts to determine the corrosion resistance to each alcohol component contained in the highly concentrated alcohol fuels. It was confirmed that each alcohol component contained in the highly concentrated alcohol fuels currently on the market causes corrosion of the aluminum generally used for automotive fuel-system parts.

Fascinating story.

[RedDevil]

One thought.

You cannot mix pure gasoline with water. The water would just sink to the bottom of the tank, waiting for a chance to enter the fuel line and kill the engine.

You can however mix E10 with water. It has beneficial effects to the engine, if Wikipedia is to be believed (see post above). It also has beneficial effects to the wallet of the owners of petrol stations. They might even mix more water in than would really be useful for the engine. If that happens, your fuel economy will certainly suffer.

That could explain some of the bad effects on FE and engine behaviour of E10 reported in this thread. After all, it is easy to do, and who really does a total chemical analysis of the gas they tank?

Looking for news sites on hydrated ethanol blends, it seems that it was buzzing at the end of June 2013. The findings must have been published just before that. So that may explain why this item is fresh on Wikipedia.
(reference to the product site of Blue One deleted - it did change recently)