Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-09-2013, 12:21 AM   #201 (permalink)
EtOH
 
Allch Chcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Coast, California
Posts: 429

Cordelia - '15 Mazda Mazda3 i Sport
90 day: 37.83 mpg (US)
Thanks: 72
Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
Aluminum alloy needs to be anodized or it will corrode. Corrosion weakens the exposed metal structure. Under normal fuel system pressure this could result in pitting of the surface. Fuel rails in MPFI configurations are typically anodized Aluminum. Which is after the fuel filter, BTW. So this could lead to foreign particles clogging the fuel injectors. I believe this is more of a concern on older vehicles.

Technically, any Gasoline cars and trucks post mid to late 80's is going to be "safe" for Ethanol. The slight difference in corrosion between E10 and E85 is a long term concern. The biggest issue is EFI programming and fuel compensation limitations. Early EFI used narrow band Lambda sensors, aka Oxygen sensors. Even some early OBDII compliant stuff didn't have the wide band Lambda Sensors. Newer CAN bus systems use wide band Lambda sensors than can compensate for Air to Fuel mixtures beyond Stoichiometric. This means the ECU can compensate for a wider range of engine conditions and operation. Plus non-FFVs often have a smaller window of adjustability for fueling.

__________________
-Allch Chcar

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-09-2013, 12:32 AM   #202 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,505

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,490
Thanked 3,276 Times in 2,071 Posts
I have even noticed the difference in windows available for mixture strength control between my '92 Tempo and '94 F150; I run similar blends or even straight E85 in each, and they seem to run similarly on ethanol/blends, but the CEL is much more likely to light in the Tempo. I speculate that truck engines might have the ability to run a bit richer programmed into them for the cooling effects when they are worked hard.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 06:20 AM   #203 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
P-hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,408

awesomer - '04 Toyota prius
Thanks: 102
Thanked 249 Times in 201 Posts
if you don't want to reprogram your efi for e85, it can likely be compensated for via higher fuel pressure and/or higher flow injectors.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 08:44 PM   #204 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: World
Posts: 385
Thanks: 82
Thanked 82 Times in 67 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
Aluminum alloy needs to be anodized or it will corrode.
But corrode under what conditions? Al. even left in humid air won't corrode as long as the protective oxide coating remains intact. (Al. is not a good bearing material.)

In conditions where there is some other chemistry involved, such as contact with Ethanol or in an atmosphere that contains sea salt, then the simple Al. oxide coating that forms spontaneously is insufficient.

Quote:
The biggest issue is EFI programming and fuel compensation limitations. Early EFI used narrow band Lambda sensors, aka Oxygen sensors. Even some early OBDII compliant stuff didn't have the wide band Lambda Sensors. Newer CAN bus systems use wide band Lambda sensors than can compensate for Air to Fuel mixtures beyond Stoichiometric. This means the ECU can compensate for a wider range of engine conditions and operation. Plus non-FFVs often have a smaller window of adjustability for fueling.
Even with narrow band sensors the fuel mixture compensation that is learned during closed loop operation will be extrapolated into open loop operation. If a high ethanol content fuel is used, the resulting lean mixture is compensated for in both closed and open loop operation.

Yes, there are limits set on how much correction is made before it is assumed there is a problem that shouldn't be learned around. If there is a CEL lit when on ethanol it is likely the allowed correction parameters have been exceeded.

If you can get away with operating only on ethanol, without having to use gas at all, using the higher flowing fuel injectors is the easiest way to avoid fuel mixture problems.

Higher fuel pressure will also increase the flow rate through the injectors but is more likely to run into the limitations of the fuel pump.

Fuel flow is proportional to the square root of the pressure difference across the injector. For 25% greater injector flow you'd need 1.56 X the original fuel pressure. The pump has to be capable of providing that extra pressure in addition to the (25%) extra flow rate. With higher flowing injectors, just the extra flow rate is required from the pump.

Last edited by Occasionally6; 10-09-2013 at 08:52 PM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Occasionally6 For This Useful Post:
Allch Chcar (10-10-2013)
Old 11-21-2013, 09:45 PM   #205 (permalink)
radioranger
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canton CT
Posts: 442
Thanks: 140
Thanked 41 Times in 31 Posts
A buddy of mine won a sum in the lotto and bought some silver for end of the world scenario's, I told him , in end of the world scenario, you want to be able to make alcohol, for fuel or what ever, , easily traded, Picture the revenue boys checking your injector flow rate, and ultra gauge totals,
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2013, 10:16 PM   #206 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 13,091
Thanks: 3,178
Thanked 4,326 Times in 3,441 Posts
Good on him.

Suggest he diversify:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Google
Save Your Nickels - SurvivalBlog.com
Save Your Nickels - Cached - Similar
Apr 30, 2013 ... My advice: start filling military surplus ammo cans with $2 (40 coin) rolls of nickels . The standard ... They will hold $188 of rolled nickels per can.
Also, if I had liquidity right now—Bitcoin was at $900 yesterday, up double in a week and tenfold in 30 days. There's a limit to the downside, but not to the upside.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com