Normally closed momentary switch. - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

getnpsi · 06-01-2008, 02:39 AM

Where can these be sourced, other than door latches? I want to buy a "ricer" style shift knob and replace the normally open with a normally closed switch to cut fuel on demand (DFCO help) rather than try the vacuum idea. If the car doesn't stumble or code out from cutting fuel too early vs ecu's control ill add a vacuum switch to make it fully automatic. By having the button on the shifter I think it would become pretty second nature as I drive, but I'd hate to hit it on accident

cfg83 · 06-01-2008, 04:10 AM

getnpsi -

You can get a "normally open" switch and attach it to a relay that you connect to be "normally closed". You attach the button so that when the button is closed, it forces the relay to go open. Not as elegant, but works like a charm and can take the worry out of switches not being able to "take the amps".

Otherwise, if you look on Marine supplies websites that specialize in 12 Volt electronics, you can (eventually) find these switches.

Good electronic switch site :

Switches - The Electronics Club
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/switch.htm

EDIT: Ha ha, found this 35MM diameter monster :

Momentary mushroom head emergency stop
http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrica...4/kw/momentary

CarloSW2

getnpsi · 06-02-2008, 10:22 PM

pretty funny there, I might go for one of these ebay jobs and switch the switch. sually they unscrew from the bottom

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SILVE...QQcmdZViewItem

ttoyoda · 06-03-2008, 01:40 PM

Plenty of switch choices here:
2 examples
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...oductId=121305
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...oductId=154878

getnpsi · 06-03-2008, 04:11 PM

i found some at radio shack but they are tiny. I wanted a lil bigger. Im going to install it today and let you know if the driveability suffers any. If it doesnt I'm getting the $20 vacuum one to make it not so mad scientist feeling.

cfg83 · 06-03-2008, 05:00 PM

getnpsi -

Quote:

Originally Posted by getnpsi

pretty funny there, I might go for one of these ebay jobs and switch the switch. sually they unscrew from the bottom

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SILVE...QQcmdZViewItem

I like this idea, but maybe with a different shape on the shift knob. If you look at this picture :

You can see that they are using a relay, but with only four pins. The 5-pin relays allow for normally closed momentary switching :

In the above, if you attach a "regular" momentary switch to connection 87, it will become a momentary open switch to create momentary fuel cutoff.

CarloSW2

ttoyoda · 06-03-2008, 05:40 PM

If it doesnt I'm getting the $20 vacuum one to make it not so mad scientist feeling.

I always though the mad scientist feeling part is what makes it the most fun.

getnpsi · 06-04-2008, 05:33 AM

Its on the car and running. Either I have leaky injectors or there are 2 grounds to the multipinned plug over there. I can hold the switch down and the car almost dies and just about when it does it stumbles back to life. I need to get the book out and see if there are 2 grounds in that part of the harness, or if its picking up a "semi ground," like in blinkers that alternate on some cars, where the ground wire becomes the parking light...if that makes sense. Anyway i mounted the switch on the console near the shifter and can hold it down below the 1500rpm and let go when I press in the clutch right before im stopped permitting the engine to stay alive. We will see if the addition of the switch combined with myself being so much more aware of decel benefits will help the mpg's. Anyway sucess, no check engines or anything else that i was scared of.

Oh wow I wasnt aware the item came with a relay? That would make everything very simple. Anyway it's working as-is so I can expand on it being totally confident.

COMP · 06-07-2008, 01:55 AM

was there 2 grounds ??

getnpsi · 06-07-2008, 01:09 PM

I've had a lazy few days and haven't done any more progress. I was using the button so often i snapped the thing off. Lucky for me they come in a 4-pack for $3.79. The other positive thing is when the switch fails on the top side the circuit is closed anyway, so I can continue to drive like nothing happened. This last full tank got me over 40mpg, but I can't say this helped any when I added wheel discs and drove on the freeway a lot more. The best thing I can see now is I can add the vacuum switch and not have a check engine light.

kmactavi · 06-09-2008, 01:27 PM

I have a 2001 5sp TDI Jetta, and I do a lot of NICE-OFF coasting in my P&G (Pulse and Glide) routine. I have to shut the engine off with the key every coast, and a push-button fuel cutoff would be much easier. Just to make sure I've got an idea of what's going on, the fuel-cut solenoid is normally closed (12 V allows fuel flow) and you used a normally open Push Button wired to a normally closed 12 V relay that is in series with the solenoid for your fuel cut. Is this how you did it/will this work?

Kirk

getnpsi · 06-09-2008, 08:39 PM

no actually I used no relay to test this. I found the injector harness ground, cut it, and wired in a normally closed switch, so when I pressed the button it killed the injector's ground. Again the car doesnt quite die but it chokes bad @ idle, so it's pretty much instant no fuel. I do not have electronics hooked up to an injector yet so I cant tell you how much juice is going thru, as stated before I might have a second ground, or the actual wires might be their own ground, like the current could be shorting on a 5v lead from a 12v power. Ive never really messed with these things before. I do notice that I'm P&G much more just to be able to use my toy, so the placebo effect and further practice might be much more effective than the button.

kmactavi · 06-09-2008, 11:01 PM

Thanks getnpsi. I would rather have a normally open switch so if it's lead are somehow detached in the dash, I will lose the choke, but the engine will still run. Which means I need a normally open switch and normally closed relay. Will the wiring diagram in the attached file work? (I forgot to draw it, but the GROUND wire goes to the switch, then to the ground)

Relay: SPDT (OR SPST NC) 12V 1A
Switch: SPST NO, Momentary

Will 12V 1A relay, and 3A 250VAC switch, work for this application?

edit: I'm using it to kill the engine in idle for P&G, not for engine braking, so I need a complete kill.

Thanks.

Kirk

dcb · 06-09-2008, 11:18 PM

re: kill switches, I'm a convert to the ignition type kill switch. I've done the fuel system cutoff and inevitably they stumble on after hitting the switch (even with mpfi). It is better to interrupt the ignition signal from the camshaft/crankshaft sensor.

diesel_john · 06-09-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb

re: kill switches, I'm a convert to the ignition type kill switch. I've done the fuel system cutoff and inevitably they stumble on after hitting the switch (even with mpfi). It is better to interrupt the ignition signal from the camshaft/crankshaft sensor.

So how long does it take to burn the fuel left on the intake valves? Would keeping the throttle open for an instant longer clean it up faster?

kmactavi · 06-10-2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcb

re: kill switches, I'm a convert to the ignition type kill switch. I've done the fuel system cutoff and inevitably they stumble on after hitting the switch (even with mpfi). It is better to interrupt the ignition signal from the camshaft/crankshaft sensor.

Hmm are there any repercussions to doing it this way? I thought it would be 'cleaner' (have less impact on other electronics) if I cut the fuel directly, but that's two people saying it didn't cut the fuel completely. John, have you had problems with the engine not dying completely while in neutral?

Kirk

getnpsi · 06-10-2008, 12:46 AM

When I release the switch, the car runs fine and it doesnt stumble at all. This may be because it never really dies completely, however I'm thinking if there is a noticeable stumble and the ecu's trying to catch up it might be dumping fuel and making emissions go up anyway.

Now doing this on a diesel could be easier or maybe even harder...the injectors' pressures aren't any 43psi. I need to pick up that dwell meter toy from harbor freight and get a diagram of my harness. I'm planning on tearing out this engine and want to use the same ecu/harness to power a larger engine, so matching up fuel injectors will be an upfront issue in the future.

dcb · 06-10-2008, 01:09 AM

DJ, et. al. the problem is that there is fuel in the manifold even though you cutoff the injectors. You *can* burn it out faster by holding the throttle pedal open while in neutral, but I prefer leaving it where it is that I might use it for accelerating the car.

getnpsi · 06-10-2008, 01:33 AM

There is a thread that parallels this idea, the member is using a seperate switch for everything LOL. Anyway he kills the ecu rather than just the fuel injectors. I might try this idea when I get under the hood again. Ill probably keep this fuel injector circuit because its already made, use a vacuum switch and add an ECU cut. I have one on my srt-4 already to reset the computer, but on the aspire ill just use the 12v ignition for the key so it doesnt kill the stored memory.

I never thought of bumping the throttle with the button held down. If i hear an extra sputter then ill know if there is that much fuel left. I'm not goosing throttle when trying to save gas, that naturally never occured to me heh.