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Old 12-04-2012, 01:45 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bschloop View Post
the mileage debate here is getting pretty ridiculous. you are both right. at posted speeds and normal driving sendler is correct. with hypermiling and mima and such three wheeler is right.....


I thought it was a "discussion" however.

Go Craig!! I hope you sell a ton of them!!


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Old 12-04-2012, 02:13 PM   #62 (permalink)
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As a comparison, consider the airtech fairing that Fred uses. LANDSPEED, LAND SPEED RACING, SALT RACER, BONNEVILLE, EL MIRAGE, FAIRING, SEAT, FENDER, SCTA, CESSNA, WHEEL PANTS COVER, 170,172,175 His is the GSXR Sidecar unit, or derivitive thereof.

The front is $2000 and the rear is $2000. Then comes mounting. fitment of lights, license, etc, paint if you want. And it doesn't have nearly as much room inside the still air pocket as the Vetter design. You need to be in a crouch to make it work really well.

So $2000 doesn't seem so bad for a kit with all the hard to make parts already done. It's still steep for what people are considering an economy minded bike and will just about double the investment of the original bike it will likely be installed on. I think that is where alot of people choke.

That said, how else are you going to get a durable, light nose cone, clean up the front and set-up the rear of a bike for less? Maybe the rear could be done less, but I don't know what the a-la-carte pricing is.

My personal plan is still a feet forward alligator-style efi 250cc single. Somehow, it will need aero bodywork to be complete. Realistically, a cut down Vetter kit is probably the best way to do it that I can see, even at $2000.
Good design is simple. Getting there isn't.

Last edited by beatr911; 12-04-2012 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:01 PM   #63 (permalink)
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The demographics for 250cc motorcycles is broad both for new riders and older riders. A streamlined body and reduced gearing gives an agreeable level of comfort and performance. Getting 100 mpg for an investment in a new vehicle under $8,000 will be hard to resist. Up to 95% of commuters nationally drive solo and traffic congestion is a major problem. Operating costs for a such a motorcycle are roughly 2/3 of a economy car. For most vehicles mentioned in the forms, full aero mods increase fuel economy by 50% of stock and hypermiling techniques add another 50%. Having worked in auto parts sales for more than 10 years I believe there is a potential national market for the Vetter kit of 300 units per year to start. I also believe that the fairing system can be built in such a manner that will reduce fatalities and injuries by half if used with an inertial reel lap belt. ABS options and an air bag could improve that by another 15% or more without making it into a cage. Once this package is properly marketed the demand will grow rapidly so that in ten years 20% of households will have some kind of steamlined scooter or motorcycle. In the same time period 50% of all households could have at least one bicycle with a fairing for trips up to 25 miles.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:14 AM   #64 (permalink)
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How many miles is 2000$ with a 50% improvement in fuel consumption ?

I have a 250 GN, returns around 3 Liters per 100 kms. That's 4,5€.
If I fit a kit, I gain 1,5€ per 100 kms.
The kit should pay for itself within 100000 kms on my particular bike.
Even if (when) the fuel price doubles, it is still 50000 kms wich is 7 year of commuting for me.
I am sorry but retrofitting a vehicle with a setup that should pay for itself on the life span of the vehicle is a no goer.

On the other hand, buying a dedicated new vehicle sounds better. And I think electric motorbike market should be very much interested in this as it improves their biggest flaw : range.

So althought it is an apparently great product and Craig's contribution to motoring is awesome (turning keyboard passion into actual product is something we are not all gifted with), no, sorry, I am not in the market for a kit (being in France does not help with cost either)
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:48 AM   #65 (permalink)
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For the overseas markets I imagine selling kit plans may be one way to go. Another would be to license a local supplier to make the compound curve components.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:02 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I think we need to extend our analysis beyond ROI; because reality is sooooo much larger than Return on Investment. ROI only tells you about the money consequences of you expenditures.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:32 AM   #67 (permalink)
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We also need to extend the discussion for "Why" beyond the altruistic "good for the environment" mantra. At least in the USA, motorcycles are toys and lifestyle decisions first and foremost. As far as I can tell (and someone please present a good argument why not if you disagree) a small splinter use them for economic reasons, and an even smaller subset use them to save the environment. For most these are an added bonus to motorcycling, not the primary driver.

Craigs market analysis is spot on. Only a few will actually build these, but a much greater group of motorcyclists and auto motorists will and do, have interest. To make these appeal to those who will open thier wallet there needs to be a catalyst to make them cool. Something that will put it on the map of the aforementioned lifestyle choice. Something that the owner identifies as personal image building. Harley Davidson has been a master of this image creation. They make more money on accessories and clothing than the bikes themselves!

Any ideas on what that image development might be? How can it be accomplished?

This aerodynamic work is too good to let die.
Good design is simple. Getting there isn't.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:47 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by beatr911 View Post
How can it be accomplished?
It starts with a few early adopters and catches on from there as being new and cool. The only thing would DRIVE streamlining forward is $10 / gallonUS gas.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:01 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
It starts with a few early adopters and catches on from there as being new and cool. The only thing would DRIVE streamlining forward is $10 / gallonUS gas.
I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second. I personally think we could drive streamlining forward in the USA by making them here. many people who ride harleys do so specifically because they are still made in the USA. currently the US has no other choice for domestically manufactured vehicle. except for toyota that is.

for a 100% american made Streamliner we could source engines from polaris, the rest would have to be custom. Craig's kit would make the bodywork fairly simple. at least to start with while you focused on the frame, and steering geometry.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:15 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I think sendler has described the market. Even with $4 gas it appears the majority is still more interested in projecting their ego than in gaining improved efficiency.

As far as bikers go... it might be more appealing to many of them if it comes with a shark mouth graphics/pinup girl graphics/open header package.


Last edited by Frank Lee; 12-11-2012 at 10:24 PM..
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