Another win for the idiots.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

And, here is their (SwRI) catalog of automotive-research brochures: SwRI Automotive Engineering Brochures

Man I would love to walk through there facility.

[Madact]

A very interesting video on work simulating combustion (in this case, in rocket engines). It focuses mainly on the computing techniques used, but if you take a look from about 41:30 to 42:30, it points out the complexity of the chemistry even in simple reactions like burning hydrogen or methane. There's a whole lot more going on there than hydrogen + oxygen => in the case of burning hydrogen, the reactions for burning methane are significantly more complex again, and I expect the equivalents for gasoline or diesel are downright scary.

Upshot being that there are a whole lot of intermediate reactions which could be tipped one way or another by a little extra hydrogen and/or oxygen in the mix - relative concentrations of intermediate species / reactants could have quite an effect on the reaction pathways. Apart from the chemical effects, hydrogen gas is a tremendous conductor of heat, a little free hydrogen in the cylinder could quite possibly help conduct heat away from hot spots or increase the speed of the flame front by thermal conduction. Without making any claims here (I have no data myself, nor any particular opinion at this point on whether 'HHO' devices are a good idea) it's certainly plausible that some effects here could help with problems of flame propagation, premature ignition, incomplete breakdown of the fuel, or incomplete combustion of the fuel or the intermediate chemical species in the reaction - all of which are known and accepted sources of inefficiency in an ICE (and of course, there's the reports that it helps with carbon build-up, though that's really more of a maintenance and tuning issue IMO).

It may be that adding 'HHO' helps with none of these, but dismissing the concept just on the basis of trotting out some high school thermochemistry and stating "energy to produce HHO" + losses > "energy from burning HHO" (while true enough in itself, to be fair) is a bit silly. There are lots of other ways this could be influencing the process.

GPU Technology Conference 2015

[RustyLugNut]

And, that was an excellent and thoughtful post.

[deejaaa]

RLN, i feel it's only a matter of time before you get banned. change your attitude. like has been said, show proof, not hot air.
can't wait for the words of wisdom for me now because i know you will say something.

[ME_Andy]

His post looked fine to me...

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

And, that was an excellent and thoughtful post.

I agree, very cool post!!!

Thanks

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by deejaaa

RLN, i feel it's only a matter of time before you get banned. change your attitude. like has been said, show proof, not hot air.
can't wait for the words of wisdom for me now because i know you will say something.

My attitude is to speak about topics I have an understanding of and some experience in. This is clearly reflected in my posts. I simply ask that others do the same. Many on this forum do not. Blindly criticizing without an understanding of the topic simply adds noise and confusion.

I have simply stated the possibility of HHO devices having some beneficial effect under the right set of conditions. Combustion theory supports this possibility.

Proof? As I have mentioned, I have done some passing work with HHO devices and the results are not dramatic. Tank to tank testing will not be sufficiently accurate to be useful. To pass the Sagan Test, without the advantage of an EPA certified testing lab, will require some clever work to be considered convincing. I have a testing protocol that should be sufficient. But, life gets in the way. Time will tell when the work progresses sufficiently to produce some results.

[ME_Andy]

If you read the SwRI document that somebody posted above carefully, it specifically mentions that H2 injection can be beneficial. The trick is using it correctly. It just takes a heck of a lot testing to figure out how, and that varies from engine to engine.

[pgfpro]

This is amazing!!!

Very cool technology!!!

[P-hack]

HHO is maligned because it is pickle jars and electrodes and tons of hype and poor and often dishonest testing/marketing. As well as keeping two tanks topped off is impractical.

I don't see paying for the computing time to prove/disprove the hype. The company might throw HHO out there (didn't see where) because they could offer their services in the analysis of it, but how much "gain" (including losses) do you hope to get, and how much control of the combustion process is "bolt-on able"? (we aren't designing open cycle rockets from scratch here)

This is a red-herring from an hho perspective. Nobody is going to pay for this kind of research, but will insist there is something worth persuing there anyway. And the pickle jars will keep coming.

There is no real theory behind hho, just that it will somehow be better.

I mean, c'mon, there arent even any comparative hho dyno charts available (at least not ones where they didn't change 20 other things), and we are going to jump to thousands of parallel GPU's?!? (with lossy compression)