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Old 11-25-2014, 01:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Another win for the idiots.

Birk1 comes on the forum making a reasonable inquiry. The lot of you do your usual. Your high school arguments about combustion efficiency are bandied about and the thread devolves into nothing and is closed by the Mods.

Some of you made fair warnings to Birk1 and the thread was moved to the Corral as it should be because of the topic content, but just as always, you go too far as a group. Shame on you.

I made an example of a thread by poor T vago that illustrated the simple idiotic tactics that are often used, knowingly or otherwise to derail a thread. His thread was sound and had value. But it does not matter. Attack, undermine and flood with hack chatter and the original thread is destroyed.

You did the same. Yes, we know scammers often come on here and peddle their wares and I am among the first to chase him off. But, you guys don't stop there do you? Anyone who makes mention of HHO gets lambasted by the same old tired arguments. And they are old and tired. And the Mods don't help by simply closing the thread. That is exactly what the idiots want and you play into their hands.

It is only common courtesy in everyday life to discuss within your abilities and knowledge base. When I bring my father in for his cancer treatment and care, I bring my older brother along. I have designed medical imaging devices and I was part of a team that brought advanced ( for the time ) radiation therapy to the fight against cancer. But, when the discussion turns to the workings of the human body my knowledge becomes limited and my language becomes inadequate. That is why I bring my brother along. He has that medical background and experience. He understands intrinsically the language they use and they appreciate speaking with one of their peers instead of having to dumb down for the "engineer". I pretty much just shut up and listen in as best I can when we go in for these consultations. I do that to be courteous and to facilitate getting to the answers.

The topic of HHO is much the same way. It has it's hacks and quacks pushing this and that. But I have put forward a scenario where a small amount of HHO could affect combustion in a positive way. It has it's own set of concepts and language that is beyond common understanding but this does not negate the fact that it is based on tried and true mainstream science that is used in the field in question.

The application of thermodynamics to thermochemical combustion reactions is found as an elective in many upper level curriculum around the world and extended by avid graduate research. It is a constantly growing field.

If you have a good understanding of the field, please chime in. If not, please be courteous.

If you have struggled through your own HHO build and found gains or losses or nothing at all, that has value too. Add your experience to the pot of knowledge. If you have not built one, please be courteous and refrain from interjecting "expert" advice.

The bottom line is simple. And I state it again. Let people make inquiry and experimentation on HHO devices and installations so that we as a community may have clear cut answers to the others looking in.

Birk1, I invite you to make another inquiring post if you can forgive the dysfunction in these forums.

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Old 11-25-2014, 04:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
If you have not built one, please be courteous and refrain from interjecting "expert" advice.
i think this is central to the HHO discussions, but i'm looking in a different direction. There are many threads here on various builds, either on a whole vehicle, or on a particular modification. Within these threads the build might be talked through step by step, pictures taken, results and testing methods posted and discussed, how and why they succeeded or failed. The builds and the people who make them are like an open book.
Are there any builds like this here that i am missing? It seems more often there are not builds, but a few claims, which seem to be all very secretive for some important yet unverified reason. Modifications previously accepted here as legitimate will be backed up time to time by a new member sharing their success. Despite the prevalence of HHO talk, somehow random outsiders never seem to find their way here to talk out the success of their build.
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I doubt that the effect of oxyhydrogen on the combustion process could have escaped the academic world.
Do you know of any publication by any of the recognized university physics departments describing it? Or physic scholar debating it?

If any of this made it to a reputed scientific publication then there is no debate.
If no scientist deemed the matter worthy of publication then there must be a reason for it.

We are hungry for knowledge and love the startling and exciting stuff more than the textbook wisdom, but we have seen too many scams to not be cautious.
We want proof of those claims, not the user testimony kind of stuff - too many patients firmly believe their placebo drugs cured them - but scientifically sound and repeatable experimentation, with an academic backing.

I had a look if I could find any.
Wikipedia does not bode well: Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and Hydrogen fuel enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Encyclopedia Brittanica is much more informative, and shows some interesting aspects as the fact that pure oxyhydrogen gas will not burn completely, as the heat that would generate would break up some of the newly formed water molecules again: Oxygen - Temperature, Oxyhydrogen, Heat, and Flame

Academicjournals.org has a research paper which shows test results of a twin cylinder diesel engine run on diesel and either oxyhydrogen or a mix of coconut gas: http://www.academicjournals.org/arti...%20et%20al.pdf. Sadly the English is quite bad and it is impossible to see how they tested or even how they derived their graphs. Lots of claims, no methods, hardly any data.
As it is just a PDF there is no peer review or such.
But it has links to Panacea University... Academic backing, so to say. Now we are getting somewhere.
Gotta check them out: Panacea - University of Pavia
Hmm, so what do they do, really? What have they achieved?
Then I found this: http://www.panaceatech.org/Marco%20Rodin%20Coils.pdf
Quote:
The Panacea University is the world’s first “unofficial” OPEN SOURCE University. No other faculty in the world covers this material. The Panacea University is not officially recognized. We call it a university as we teach – Nothing more, nothing less. Panacea’s course material is an educational series covering OPEN SOURCE clean FREE energy technology towards building our children a future.
Oh dear, oh dear. An unrecognized self proclaimed university offering course material anyone can provide. Nudge nudge.

Then from India's Ijettjornal.org: more detailed, and better readable.
This actually does provide a description of the engine used, methods and data.
It does show that the addition of oxyhydrogen gas improves the power output of a lean burning diesel engins, but sadly falls short of answering the question of whether the power needed to produce the oxyhydrogen is more than what you gain from burning it again. Instead they just refer to a 12V power supply, which in fact could be a reasonable setup: just have an extra 12V battery to generate the oxyhydrogen and charge it on the mains, turning a diesel engined car into a partial plugin EV.
Whether that beats an alternator delete setup?

A worthy source of information is this patent for an oxyhydrogen generator: Patent US20140216366 - Hydrogen on-demand fuel system for internal combustion engines - Google Patents.
Now a patent is not proof it works, but the description gives a wealth of references to follow up on. It also describes the problems of other systems of generating oxyhydrogen so it deserves a good look by anyone tempted to use those.

It also cites a 1977 NASA document (EMISSIONS AND TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION OF A MULTICYLINDER PISTON ENGINE RUNNING ON GASOLINE AND A HYDROGEN-GASOLINE MIXTURE) that all the HHO sites refer to (f.i. http://empirehydrogen.com/docs/NASA_TN_D-8487.pdf)
Reading that I don't really see why.
NASA replicates some of the results the Indians discovered 35 years later, but again the effect is not really staggering. It does have some beneficial effects, it would be impossible not to have that, but again it is doubtful that it would outdo the cost of generating hydrogen - at best. NASA sees it as a problem and looks into generating hydrogen from methanol, which seems to defeat practicality.

I can go on like this but every link I try and every reference I check ultimately ends in insignificance or worse.

So, I have tried to find any good but I am not convinced oxyhydrogen can be of practical use; the contrary, rather.
It does drive me towards biochemically processing a mild ethanol mixture, so it is time to end this post now while I take that matter to heart.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:12 PM   #4 (permalink)
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
Some of you made fair warnings to Birk1 and the thread was moved to the Corral as it should be because of the topic content, but just as always, you go too far as a group. Shame on you.
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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There have been a few honest inquiries about HHO and vapor carbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000mc View Post
i think this is central to the HHO discussions, but i'm looking in a different direction. There are many threads here on various builds, either on a whole vehicle, or on a particular modification. Within these threads the build might be talked through step by step, pictures taken, results and testing methods posted and discussed, how and why they succeeded or failed. The builds and the people who make them are like an open book.
Are there any builds like this here that i am missing? It seems more often there are not builds, but a few claims, which seem to be all very secretive for some important yet unverified reason. Modifications previously accepted here as legitimate will be backed up time to time by a new member sharing their success. Despite the prevalence of HHO talk, somehow random outsiders never seem to find their way here to talk out the success of their build.
Some of them have builds. They all meet the same end. A closed thread because of idiotic interjection.

I would like to see Birk1 reveal more of his build and see what he has done. But, I would not blame him for leaving considering the reception this forum gives any HHO subject.

I have been on these forums since it's inception with differing accounts as I was on the development team for an Xprize entrant as the engine specialist. Back then the forum paralleled the Xprize and was a vibrant and accepting place. I even met many posters face to face. There was a higher degree of courtesy and professionalism. Jory Squib, builder of "Moonbeam" and a physicist was energetic and engaging. Wind him up and let him go! I learned much just listening to a fellow who preached and lived his message of economy. I spent an afternoon with Nancy Hazard an organizer of the Tour Del Sol and the Xprize. I learned of her vision and wish for the better place we could leave for our children. I had dinner with Jack McCornack and absorbed his ideas of building smaller, lighter and more economical. I looked at his work and he looked at mine. I marveled at his building of Max his Xprize entrant. He bluntly scoffed at my installation of an HHO device and simply said "those things don't work". It did not offend me and I still hold him in esteem for being the crafty and savvy builder that he is. Ernie, another physicist from Colorado who posted a theoretical paper about the application of the Atkinson cycle to the diesel engine cycle was blunt in his doubts the electrolytic products of water could make a difference when made on board a vehicle. All of them were courteous enough to refrain from continued bashing or interjections when the subject matter strayed outside their base of knowledge. That does not happen here. Everyone is an expert and has a say in any subject they can Google.

I have a build. I finally got permission to reveal the work I did for a development group concerning hydrogen augmented combustion in spark ignited gasoline engines the end of this September. I just cannot use the data gathered under their pay. It is theirs to use. The work was brief as it was quickly realized there is little market for an HHO device. A device that operates in the classically studied 4% hydrogen by volume or greater would be needed for any market acceptance. Thus, no work continued for HHO devices.

But, I can reproduce the work. Nothing stops me from doing so. But should I reveal it here where such a poison of opinion prevents anyone from getting very far before the thread is closed because of the usual ruffians?

I have my doubts. The forum has devolved into a shadow of what it used to be. And I have my day job finishing the development of a hydrogen generator with a couple orders of magnitude more capability than the HHO devices seen on YouTube. Nothing magical. Just good engineering applied to well known science principles ( in the subject matter ). Just watch, the naysayers will jump in a say "prove it, prove it, prove it".

Because they are experts in the field and because they can.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I appreciate your post.

RedDevil,

You bring up the problem one runs into in research using the web. There is overwhelming data, and the attempt to digest it results in mental indigestion.

That is why I propose we do our own research. If we had a few posters who had builds and could be teachable, maybe we could collaborate to answer some questions. But, we never get there. The usual tired arguments are thrown like dung at the thread.

You must remember that science also has it's stigmas and mental pitfalls. Academia may not see the value in HHO research and that is understandable. But, there is talk of research into hydrogen seeding effects since this could be valuable to HCCI (homogenous charge compression ignition ) research. There has been research to the effects off small ( parts per million ) amounts of ozone seeding. I will have to look for an active link to that conclusion. Simply put, 40 ppm could accelerate combustion. In HHO, we always forget that the other compound , oxygen, is often not pure and contains a small amount of ozone.

There is some evidence for HHO interaction. It is often found in eye opening claims results. I have tried to chase down some of these claims and looked into the engine and setup to attempt to divine what, if anything is going on. I have come to the conclusion certain conditions must be in place for HHO to have a useful effect and some installations just happen to have those conditions so the installer claims success and thinks he can sell the device to everyone - with mixed results.

Since academia does not provide us a clear picture of HHO, we must make our own postulations based on good, clear science and then test accordingly.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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RustyLugNut et.al. -- I refer you ALL back to the Unicorn Corral's introductory statement:

...Carl Sagan test: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

and "...trust me, I know what I'm doing..." just don't hack it.


Unsubstantiated *extraordinary evidence* is merely fodder for the Devil's Advocates among us.

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Old 11-25-2014, 10:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Infinitesimally small levels of HHO will yield even infinitesimally smaller levels of results.

If you want to increase oxygen levels do what all the old people who smoked all their lives are forced to do, get an oxygen concentrator.
If you think Ozone is the key to everything take the oxygen concentrator and run an electric arc through the oxygen stream. That will get as much or as little Ozone as you want. It will far surpass and be much more controllable then what an HHO cell will provide.
If all you are trying to do is increase burn speed there are several things that can be done to increase a gasoline engines air fuel burn speed. The addition of nitrous oxide or just simply increase compression.

Everything you want to test would be so much better tested with something other than an HHO cell. So why the obsession with HHO when its clearly not what you need to do the test?

Seems you have already determined you need an HHO cell for what ever reason, now you are just trying to justify it.

If you don't like it, there are plenty of idiot free HHO forums out there to spread your pathological science on.
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Rusty, when you have to resort to emotional arguments in a technical discussion, you just might be an idiot. It is healthy to understand your own emotions, but trying to shame and the cancer thing and the sustainability thing all have nothing to do with the subject. I dare say we have gotten too thin skinned, that when productive technological discussion takes a back seat to sensitivity then we have some serious growing up to do.
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Old 11-26-2014, 03:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Infinitesimally small levels of HHO will yield even infinitesimally smaller levels of results.
I hope that I remember to use this in the future!

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