anybody tried hydrogen generation?

[max_frontal_area]

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in a POS Fiero of all cars! he also had a 100MPG project...

[bandit86]

So nobody had a scangauge reading with and without hho?

[max_frontal_area]

Originally Posted by bandit86

before anybody jumps on this thread who hooked up a hydrogen generation kit and says it doesnt work, was the timing adjusted properly to take advantage of the fuel? hydrogen burns at a different rate than gasoline, the timing must be adjusted. Sort of like setting up timing on regular fuel and then running high octane fuel that burns slower, and combustion is not complete untill well after TDC.

I know we are yet to see some conclusive evidence of it working, but the math seems sold. optimum air-fuel ratio for a gasoline engine is 12:1, being 12 parts air to 1 part gasoline. at 30 mpg -let me carry on in metric, I find it easier, 30 mpg is 7.8L/100kms. Alright, if you drive one hour at highway speed, youc car getting 30MPG or 7.8L/100 you would have used 2 gallons or 7.8L of fuel. at 12:1 air fuel ratio that should be 24 gallons of air, or 93.6L of air consumed with that fuel. It does not seem right, that amount of air does not sound right, but you cannot dispute the logic.

hydrogen, while I hear only has about half the energy of gasoline, has a perfect air fuel ratio of 2:1. do if the engine needed 48 gallons of air fuel mixture still only 24 gallons would need to be generated, or about 47L of hydrogen gas.

so how much energy would it take to generate that much hydrogen, while installing a second alternator to help increase the electrical demand would also decrease fuel economy the cost of free water would negate the increase in fuel economy, no?

in your original post your gas engine is consuming 24 gallons of air in ONE hour? hmmm?
is the virtual gallon of hydrogen you are burning liquid or gaseous? are you burning hydrogen as a standalone fuel?

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by bandit86

So nobody had a scangauge reading with and without hho?

The people who I've talked to who tried it said that the Scangauge didn't pick up their improvements because their input of hydrogen fooled the sensors or some such BS, a ScanGauge is counting how long the injectors are open and how fast the car is going to figure out MPG, so yes, it would work, it would be very simple proof, if it did work, but so far I haven't found a single person who can prove that it works.
My neighbor, a collage kid is insisting on trying a hydrogen generator on his car, he hasn't built one yet but I have loaned him my scangauge so he can get a baseline and also see how it works, I also pointed out to him that he will not see an improvement but he want's to try it anyway, just for the hell of it, so he will be doing so with instrumentation.
I think he's wasting his time.

[Ryland]

That German bus company is not burning the hydrogen, they are using it in fuel cells to power electric motors in the electric bus instead of using a regular battery, they are also most likely getting that hydrogen from natural gas as that is how commercially produced and sold hydrogen is made.

[iveyjh]

Scanguage does not read injector pulse width to figure. It extrapolates mileage by reading iat, map, tps, and other sensors. That's why you have to calibrate when you first install it when you fill up. The only one that I know (that is reasonable) that does is MpGuino which I use. Great units. Every time you change anything (sensor modifying) when using a ScanGuage you have to recalibrate it.

[max_frontal_area]

Originally Posted by Ryland

That German bus company is not burning the hydrogen, they are using it in fuel cells to power electric motors in the electric bus instead of using a regular battery, they are also most likely getting that hydrogen from natural gas as that is how commercially produced and sold hydrogen is made.

no one suggested they were burning it.

Der zur Erzeugung des Wasserstoffs notwendige Strom wird dabei vollständig aus regenerativen Energieträgern gewonnen

trans: the GENERATION of the hydrogen is performed entirely using electricity from renewable sources.

btw, steam is the hip way of pulling hydrogen from natural gas,

also the busses are using diesels now.
perhaps they shoulda burned the hydrogen instead :-D
.................................................. .....................................
iveyjh: is there magic box that utilises an actual flow sensor instead of black magic to monitor fuel use (providing fuel is being looped and not sent back to the tank?)

[niky]

Just snip the fuel line in two and install a flow gauge in there. If hydrogen works, it should show up as slightly less fuel needed to push the engine against a brake dyno held at a certain speed.

I've talked to many hydrogen proponents, and the only ones who have any halfway sensible numbers to show are those using aftermarket engine management to "tweak" the engine to "optimize" running on hydrogen. The challenge is to show that the engine can't work at the "tweaked" settings without hydrogen boost, and that the fuel savings aren't simply due to running the engine leaner... which can be done in most cases on typically conservative factory fuel maps.

All the doubletalk in the world can't cover up the fact that there is no dyno evidence and no scientific evidence for "HHO". On the other hand, there's plenty of evidence for meth-injection and water-injection (though water-injection benefits in terms of economy aren't really that big), which don't rely on hocus pocus to work.

I've got a dyno I can borrow, as well as AFR sensors and an OBD reader that can be hooked up for dyno-sessions. And I've got a car equipped with a stable aftermarket EMS for a test bed.

Every time I hear one of these outlandish claims locally (HHO, fuel line magnets, magic fuel additives), I tell them: Pay me for the dyno-time, and we'll test it. If your numbers work out, then I'll publish the results.

So far, no takers. Big surprise. Well... some of the additives do work, a little... but not as effectively as simply buying higher octane gas...

[tangomar]

Hydrogen help the combustion.
http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspa...A3_pp_1_Ji.pdf
The problem is how much energy you need to add 5% hydrogen and if it balances out.

What does it mean in consumption to go from 21% brake efficiency to 24%?

[t vago]

Originally Posted by tangomar

Hydrogen help the combustion.
http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspa...A3_pp_1_Ji.pdf

Apple? Meet orange!

Fig. 1 displays the variation of engine brake thermal efficiency with excess air ratio under various hydrogen addition fractions at 800rpm. It shows that the brake thermal efficiency of the original engine is
reduced sharply with the increase of excess air ratio. This phenomenon demonstrates that the lean combustion technology is not suitable to be applied on the low speed conditions of a pure gasoline fuelled SI engine, since the lean mixture is hard to be burned well under large resodual gas fraction and low combustion temperature. Especially when excess air ratio exceeds 1.43, it can be clearly seen that the original engine thermal efficiency decreased dramatically, which is attributed to the misfire of the mixture in the cylinder.

While this is certainly true from a thermodynamics standpoint, the article neglects to mention the fuel savings due to not having to generate a strong intake vacuum. Nor does the article address partial load conditions, which is where an engine would be the vast majority of its operational time. Just because something is very efficiently using fuel, it doesn't mean that it's getting good fuel economy.

Furthermore, the article kind of buries the fact that NOx emissions increased over no hydrogen being added.