Hypothetical question : churchlady with an EV

[JSH]

Originally Posted by aerohead

They're one of the entities I looked at recently for residual values on used cars.
The takeaway for the present state of the 'market' is that prices are extremely inflated, at about 200% of what they 'ought' to be.
I located my pre-'COVID' used BEV prices, and you can see how 'insane' the market is right now.
' pencils & paper, what a wonderful thing!'

Vehicle prices are massively inflated right now (but coming down). However, if you were to have a car totaled today and needed to replace it that is the price that would need to be paid - and that is the price the insurance company would pay out.

[Isaac Zachary]

As someone who bought and drove a 24kWh Nissan Leaf and had a "church lady" copy me and bought one herself, I would not recommend one of those to anyone except the toughest ecomodders, although 4 miles a week might be the ticket for someone who wants a cheap car that needs no oil changes, etc.

As someone who has owned two Toyota hybrids, I don't think battery technology is always that bad. I don't think expecting at least 10 years out of a battery is unreasonable (assuming it degrades to 70% in that time). And depending on how far the car needs to be driven, an EV battery may last double or triple that. One car I really am interested in (just for the battery, I hate most everything else about the car) is the newer standard range Tesla Model 3. These come with LiFePO4 batteries that supposedly have even greater longevity than standard lithium ion batteries. And they also are non-flammable and charge more quickly than standard L-ion's.

But going back to the ICE, I've seen lots of people that don't have much of a clue of how a car works that have destroyed many engines. They never change the oil, never notice they had a coolant leak, never notice the dash lights and gauges, and they idle the heck out of the engine a lot of times in gear. A lot of these "church ladies" and such will go through cars every few years just because they have no idea of how to take care of one. At least an EV is a bit more idiot-proof as there is much less maintenance needed, except things that are more obvious like bad winshield wipers and tires.

In fact today I was outside and a young neighbor lady came up to me and my wife with some car questions about her new-to-her car. I checked her tires, two were over 50psi, and it was low on coolant. She had no clue about how to check the oil or tire pressure or things like that. I didn't check the oil because the engine was running, so let's hope that's ok. I did show her how to do all of that herself and even gave her a tire pressure gauge. She did ask what to put in the windshield wash fluid reservoir, so I tried to tell her without sounding like a smart aleck.

[Piotrsko]

Hate to to telll you but lifepo4 uses a flammable organic solvent as part of the electrolyte. Charge them to more than 4.2v and they vent that solvent. Can be exciting.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Hate to to telll you but lifepo4 uses a flammable organic solvent as part of the electrolyte. Charge them to more than 4.2v and they vent that solvent. Can be exciting.

I'm no expert, but they are marketed as "non-flammable." Seeing how their maximum voltage is 3.6V, far away from +4.2V, they seem to me to be safer than not only your typical nickel maganese cobalt type lithium ion batteries but even gasoline. If you have a car fire, you'd be better off with an EV with LiFePO4 batteries than just about anything else.

How many LiFePO4 Teslas have caught on fire? How does that compare to other EV's that have caught on fire?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I've seen lots of people that don't have much of a clue of how a car works that have destroyed many engines. They never change the oil, never notice they had a coolant leak, never notice the dash lights and gauges, and they idle the heck out of the engine a lot of times in gear. A lot of these "church ladies" and such will go through cars every few years just because they have no idea of how to take care of one. At least an EV is a bit more idiot-proof as there is much less maintenance needed, except things that are more obvious like bad winshield wipers and tires

My stepmother for instance doesn't seem to have much clue of how a car works, but she can ask me, my father and her eldest son about it, yet often I am the one she asks about cars. Early last year, once she went back to Florianópolis from a trip to Bagé where one of her brothers lives, she was mostly concerned about the battery discharging, so when she went to put the engine to work a little I explained to her the "housewife cycle" and how the oil pressure should also be taken as a matter of concern after a car was stored for a long time. But her cars tend to last long, and she only got her most recent one because her eldest son managed to persuade her to get a newer one. My father, who had a slightly larger car, kept my stepmother's previous car, which at least has automatic transmission. My knees are not something to write home about, and my father also has his fair share of damage to his legs due to motorcycle crashes before I was born, and now he seems to understand why I prefer automatics

When it comes to EVs, an engine not being so maintenance-intensive is not so much of an idiotproofing at all, because some folks may neglect other maintenance routine checks more often. My stepmother for instance, 10 years ago she was quite impressed by claims that EVs would decrease the need for servicing to the point of nearly bankrupting the service and spare parts departments of dealers which are in fact the major source of revenue. Then I had to explain why it was quite an unaccurate claim, because the engine is not the only complex component which would require servicing in order to keep a car working properly.

[Piotrsko]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I'm no expert, but they are marketed as "non-flammable." Seeing how their maximum voltage is 3.6V, far away from +4.2V, they seem to me to be safer than not only your typical nickel maganese cobalt type lithium ion batteries but even gasoline. If you have a car fire, you'd be better off with an EV with LiFePO4 batteries than just about anything
How many LiFePO4 Teslas have caught on fire? How does that compare to other EV's that have caught on fire?

Non flammable? I got a bridge in NY, NY I could sell you.

Seem to be confusing solar bulk storage with vehicles. 388v pack DNE maximum divided by 96 series cells in a 16kwh Volt pack is what voltage per cell? Hint: more than 3.6.

Depending on your fire origin criteria, many, but from assorted causes. Remember the whole recall on 66kwh Bolt packs but spontaneous random burns are rare.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Non flammable? I got a bridge in NY, NY I could sell you.

Seem to be confusing solar bulk storage with vehicles. 388v pack DNE maximum divided by 96 series cells in a 16kwh Volt pack is what voltage per cell? Hint: more than 3.6.

Depending on your fire origin criteria, many, but from assorted causes. Remember the whole recall on 66kwh Bolt packs but spontaneous random burns are rare.

Sounds like you're confusing the NMC Teslas with the LiFePO4s.

[Piotrsko]

Nope, I understand the various chemistry options, and their flammability prospects pretty well

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

Nope, I understand the various chemistry options, and their flammability prospects pretty well

You're the only one I've ever heard say LiFePO4's are flammable. There are videos online of these types of cells being crushed, punctured, overcharged, overheated, shorted, etc. and, unlike NMC, they don't ever go up in flames at all, ever. What am I missing here?

On the other hand NiMH are considered non-flammable, but I've heard of at least one guy who was able to get them to catch on fire in his Toyota Prius.

EDIT:
So it looks like you're right, that they do have a flammable electrolyte. But according to this article of tests:

In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 would be considered the
safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low
likelihood for thermal runaway to propagate.

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I don't think expecting at least 10 years out of a battery is unreasonable (assuming it degrades to 70% in that time). And depending on how far the car needs to be driven, an EV battery may last double or triple that.

You can expect EV batteries to easily last 10 years as that is the warranty on many of them. Automakers don't like warranty expenses and a failure rate of even 1% gets the CEO's attention at my employer.

BTW - CARB is standardizing EV battery requirements as part of their Advanced Clear Car II program. It will start at the 10 year / 150K miles and 70% of range and gradually increase to 80% of range by 2030.

Also the CARB plan does not completely ban sales of vehicles with an ICE in 2035. The percentages are ZEV OR PHEV