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Old 02-05-2025, 02:10 PM   #51 (permalink)
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You know that question niggling away at the back of your mind:
"Just how much do batteries actually cost us ecologically?
And just how green is the electricity we charge them with?"
Yes those ones, where someone musta done the math but lets not...


The needs of a fast-growing battery economy…

We are currently producing the overwhelming majority of our battery needs via freshly-mined minerals/ores — trend increasing. Even if battery recycling were to increase greatly, it would not satisfy the growing demand. We would still need to mine more “ingredients”. For decades to come we would be churning up the Earth to get at what we need.

Even battery recycling is facing serious challenges, as a recent paper published by researchers in materials science and environmental sustainability in the peer-review journal Battery Energy, notes: “Even though the black mass (BM) industry is expected to expand with rapidly increasing sales of electric vehicle (EV) batteries, the most sustainable circular recycling strategies are still far from being marketable.”

Black mass, a variable mixture of recovered materials from end-of-life batteries, is not the largest problem; but rather developing processes for different kinds of black mass (different battery types, have different constituents), and extracting high percentages of metals economically and cleanly.

However, here’s the bottom line: even if recycling becomes much better, we will, for many decades to come, need freshly-mined metallic ingredients in massive quantities.


Revealing the CO2 emissions impact of battery-powered vehicles globally…

In environmental terms, battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) are superior to combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) if they are driven relatively high yearly mileages. But even if we imagine comparing total CO2 emissions of comparable cars — BEVs with ICEVs using fossil fuel — the break-even point at present global energy mixes is way above what most people drive in a single car’s lifetime:



At zero km, only the DIFFERENCE in CO2 emissions between ICEV and BEV is used to start the plot: the BEV has much greater CO2 emissions in manufacture (values from global energy mixes). Up to a TOTAL travelled distance of around 570,000 km, the ICEV is responsible for less CO2 emissions than that BEV — on global energy mixes. The break-even point for a BEV running on European Union electricity mix would be somewhere around 130,000 km; on US electricity mix, in the region of 200,000 km. Below these break-even points, the ICEV running on fossil fuel produces less CO2 cumulatively across its chain of manufacture and use than the BEV.
Calculation methodology and ancillary values in The Decarbonization Delusion.
https://andrewmoorescientist.com/
aka: ademonrower

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Old 02-05-2025, 02:19 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Chart implies ICEV fossil diesels cost 0 metric tons to manufacture.
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Old 02-05-2025, 03:01 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I always reference this video on the topic of CO2 emissions. Impossible to get precise numbers, but the point is directionally true.



...then there's the fact that vehicles represent such a small proportion of fossil fuel consumption, and the fact that we're still going to use the fossil fuels for other purposes...
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Old 02-06-2025, 06:25 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Chart implies ICEV fossil diesels cost 0 metric tons to manufacture.
`

Its best to ask ademonrower about that freebeard.
Is there an 'invite' function I missed in the software?
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Old 02-06-2025, 06:31 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Don't know. There're User Profiles and Personal Messages.

...for those who might care. It was just a passing comment.
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Old 02-06-2025, 12:32 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Don't know. There're User Profiles and Personal Messages.

...for those who might care. It was just a passing comment.
The thread heading is
Megapack peaking plants up to 730-MWh
So it's actually back on topic (for a change! ) if Synthetic Fuels is a better option for fueling demand peaks.
Are they??

I'm going to try quoting ademonrower here to get his attention.
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....
ademonrower..?
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Old 02-06-2025, 12:51 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Old 02-06-2025, 03:47 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
So it's actually back on topic (for a change! )
It's always amazing when that happens.
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Old 02-10-2025, 12:36 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Synthetic fuels are probably more sustainable than batteries

At current technology, my calculations (see The Decarbonization Delusion) suggest that globally it would be considerably better for the environment for us to develop synthetic fuels for powering ICEVs than further expand the EV economy using lithium batteries. The situation viz megabatteries for bridging power fluctuation is even more striking, and in that area certain raw material experts have already noted that: 1. the speed of mining would have to accelerate several thousand times to make the necessary batteries to fit in with the renewable power growth and; 2. that several of the critical metals are only present in one tenth of the necessary accessible quantity required: bottom line IT WON'T WORK. Of course, this could all change if we invent completely new battery chemistries or technologies that have MUCH less environmental impact. I'm not one to walk around saying "it's all going to be OK when the breakthrough arrives" because it's more than just a tech company at stake here: it's the ecosphere and the very biodiversity that we humans rely on for our continued existence. Ever seen the Makay cartoon of the four tsunami waves heading for humanity? First one is COVID; behind and above it economic recession; behind and above that climate crisis; and finally, towering above the other three biodiversity collapse. I'm not joking: we're well on course for that one. Looking out for industrial things that further degrade the environment is an absolute necessity: CO2 is much less complicated and much "easier" to put figures to and invent compensation schemes, certificates etc. which don't really work either. Ecosystem metrics are very complicated, but they are the long-term worrying thing. Even if we get CO2 under control, it's the wider environmental disaster that will be our final downfall.
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Old 02-10-2025, 01:04 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Thanks for not taking the bait thrown out at Permalink #57.

I think the Makay cartoon described gets the first two waves backward.

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