Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #51 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: South Africa
Posts: 662
Thanks: 222
Thanked 259 Times in 222 Posts
You know that question niggling away at the back of your mind:
"Just how much do batteries actually cost us ecologically?
And just how green is the electricity we charge them with?"
Yes those ones, where someone musta done the math but lets not...


The needs of a fast-growing battery economy…

We are currently producing the overwhelming majority of our battery needs via freshly-mined minerals/ores — trend increasing. Even if battery recycling were to increase greatly, it would not satisfy the growing demand. We would still need to mine more “ingredients”. For decades to come we would be churning up the Earth to get at what we need.

Even battery recycling is facing serious challenges, as a recent paper published by researchers in materials science and environmental sustainability in the peer-review journal Battery Energy, notes: “Even though the black mass (BM) industry is expected to expand with rapidly increasing sales of electric vehicle (EV) batteries, the most sustainable circular recycling strategies are still far from being marketable.”

Black mass, a variable mixture of recovered materials from end-of-life batteries, is not the largest problem; but rather developing processes for different kinds of black mass (different battery types, have different constituents), and extracting high percentages of metals economically and cleanly.

However, here’s the bottom line: even if recycling becomes much better, we will, for many decades to come, need freshly-mined metallic ingredients in massive quantities.


Revealing the CO2 emissions impact of battery-powered vehicles globally…

In environmental terms, battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) are superior to combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs) if they are driven relatively high yearly mileages. But even if we imagine comparing total CO2 emissions of comparable cars — BEVs with ICEVs using fossil fuel — the break-even point at present global energy mixes is way above what most people drive in a single car’s lifetime:



At zero km, only the DIFFERENCE in CO2 emissions between ICEV and BEV is used to start the plot: the BEV has much greater CO2 emissions in manufacture (values from global energy mixes). Up to a TOTAL travelled distance of around 570,000 km, the ICEV is responsible for less CO2 emissions than that BEV — on global energy mixes. The break-even point for a BEV running on European Union electricity mix would be somewhere around 130,000 km; on US electricity mix, in the region of 200,000 km. Below these break-even points, the ICEV running on fossil fuel produces less CO2 cumulatively across its chain of manufacture and use than the BEV.
Calculation methodology and ancillary values in The Decarbonization Delusion.
https://andrewmoorescientist.com/
aka: ademonrower

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM   #52 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,972
Thanks: 8,222
Thanked 8,995 Times in 7,431 Posts
Chart implies ICEV fossil diesels cost 0 metric tons to manufacture.
__________________
.
.
Without freedom of speech we wouldn't know who all the idiots are. -- anonymous poster

________________
.
.
Because much of what is in the published literature is nonsense,
and much of what isn’t nonsense is not in the scientific literature.
-- Sabine Hossenfelder
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to freebeard For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (Yesterday)
Old Yesterday, 03:01 PM   #53 (permalink)
Human Environmentalist
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,913

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 24.19 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - CBR600 - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - Dodge/Cummins - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Chevy ZR-2 - '03 Chevrolet S10 ZR2
90 day: 17.14 mpg (US)

Model Y - '24 Tesla Y LR AWD

Pacifica Hybrid - '21 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid
90 day: 38.47 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,354
Thanked 4,502 Times in 3,463 Posts
I always reference this video on the topic of CO2 emissions. Impossible to get precise numbers, but the point is directionally true.



...then there's the fact that vehicles represent such a small proportion of fossil fuel consumption, and the fact that we're still going to use the fossil fuels for other purposes...
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:25 AM   #54 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: South Africa
Posts: 662
Thanks: 222
Thanked 259 Times in 222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Chart implies ICEV fossil diesels cost 0 metric tons to manufacture.
`

Its best to ask ademonrower about that freebeard.
Is there an 'invite' function I missed in the software?
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:31 AM   #55 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,972
Thanks: 8,222
Thanked 8,995 Times in 7,431 Posts
Don't know. There're User Profiles and Personal Messages.

...for those who might care. It was just a passing comment.
__________________
.
.
Without freedom of speech we wouldn't know who all the idiots are. -- anonymous poster

________________
.
.
Because much of what is in the published literature is nonsense,
and much of what isn’t nonsense is not in the scientific literature.
-- Sabine Hossenfelder
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:32 PM   #56 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: South Africa
Posts: 662
Thanks: 222
Thanked 259 Times in 222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Don't know. There're User Profiles and Personal Messages.

...for those who might care. It was just a passing comment.
The thread heading is
Megapack peaking plants up to 730-MWh
So it's actually back on topic (for a change! ) if Synthetic Fuels is a better option for fueling demand peaks.
Are they??

I'm going to try quoting ademonrower here to get his attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ademonrower View Post
....
ademonrower..?
  Reply With Quote
Old Today, 12:51 PM   #57 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
aerohead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sanger,Texas,U.S.A.
Posts: 16,401
Thanks: 24,469
Thanked 7,410 Times in 4,800 Posts
' Andrew Moore '

Perhaps he's not the smartest guy in the room.

__________________
Photobucket album: http://s1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj622/aerohead2/
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com