You won't believe how an obscure regulator may make gas prices explode in 2020 with this one trick!

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by litesong

Nah! Natalya tells the truth about you AGW deniers, which all your thickness of heart will not accept. I doubt if you read all her posts & you don't take her words as truth. I tell the truth about yourself, but my words got more shoe scuff on them, sending you into a hissy-fit.

You read the exxon (-mobil) CEO AGW denier propaganda poop sheet, & expel it on the internet. Of course, real scientists, you can't understand or you would know you're packing BS to the masses.

That shows me how little you really read of people's posts.

However, I am not a religious, apocalyptic dooms day prophet believer.

I am quite pragmatic.

And I will show your posts to my scientist associates and tell them the sad news that they are not "real scientists". Only you can canonize and legitimize their work.

Oh, and since you are such a well versed person in science, why don't you expound to me the effects of man changing the earth's albedo? It is a much more settled science than climate change and it is admittedly a growing problem? I have seen that current models are starting to include these effects. And they are much larger forces of local temperature change than expected. And as human sprawl covers more and more of the land surface, the effect grows. Models show albedo only effects climate temperature rise by a bit less than a percent. But this effect dwarfs CO2 percentage effects ( in the tenths of a percent). Yes, albedo is more closely related to weather changes versus climate changes, but as our urban and farmland sprawl continue to grow, so does it's effect on climate.

How about the oceans? The health of the oceans is often an afterthought in climate change discussions. We are killing our oceans in many subtle ways. And the oceans are a much greater force in sequestering CO2 than terrestrial forces such as forests and grasslands. 25% of our CO2 output is estimated to be absorbed by the ocean processes every year. This is about 2 Giga-tons of CO2 out of the 10 Giga-tons or so human activities produce. The oceans permanently sequester much of this CO2 as carbonates (calcium carbonate). It has been doing this for eons. CO2 used to be in the 4000 parts per million, atmospheric. Giga-tons of it are now encased in rock formations and fossil formations.

These two factors alone, can make or break any attempt to mitigate man made warming, if only CO2 is focused upon. But these are not the only factors. Just the easiest.

Draconian measures to stop CO2 use may halt CO2 concentrations in the next few years. But if we have a broken ocean ecosystem due to anything that damages the basic phytoplankton food base, CO2 concentrations may not be reduced fast enough. If our urban sprawl and farming methods continue to move past the 12% land surface area we are now at, albedo heating may drive our climate change no matter what we do with reducing CO2.

The combination of an increasing landmass absorption cycle that holds and releases heat instead of reflecting or transforming that energy, along with an ocean that is broken in it's ability to do it's job sequestering CO2, can trigger all the "feedback loop effects" AGW believers trumpet - methane release, deep ocean CO2 and methane release, etc.

All you seem to really want to do is to destroy the fossil fuel industry. Saving the world seems secondary. Or are you really proposing the destruction of human civilization as we know it? Because if you stop the immediate use of fossil fuels, you will bring that about.

I grew up in a relatively primitive setting. We cooked with wood. Used kerosene lighting. We rode horses and water buffalo. We grew most of our food and traded excess for the rest. I can happily go back to the days of my childhood. How about you? How about the billions that have never had a day of want such as Greta T? How about the billions that long for the day they have first world problems such as " does my cell phone use produce more CO2 emissions than the value of my posts on Ecomodder"?

You don't get to make such decisions. Not without a fight. Slam the worlds economies with your stranglehold techniques and "There will be a fight".

[Xist]

I do not know whether LightSong trolls to save the world from global warming or just uses it as an excuse.

I really do not care.

He insulted members and insulted our intelligence with nonsensical posts. A moderator told him to stop, but he didn't, and he insulted a moderator.

It seems that he found a hill to die on.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Xist

I do not know whether LightSong trolls to save the world from global warming or just uses it as an excuse.

I really do not care.

He insulted members and insulted our intelligence with nonsensical posts. A moderator told him to stop, but he didn't, and he insulted a moderator.

It seems that he found a hill to die on.

I just have too much time on my hands. Yeah, I'm working. But "working" in the modern sense of the word. I'm watching machines do the work.

I own the machines and tell them what to do. Kind of like our farm animals. Without the attitude. I remember my grandfather sitting on the water buffalo as it took a nap. The buffalo took a lot of naps. No form of persuasion would wake him.

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

These two factors alone, can make or break any attempt to mitigate man made warming, if only CO2 is focused upon. But these are not the only factors. Just the easiest.

Draconian measures to stop CO2 use may halt CO2 concentrations in the next few years. But if we have a broken ocean ecosystem due to anything that damages the basic phytoplankton food base, CO2 concentrations may not be reduced fast enough. If our urban sprawl and farming methods continue to move past the 12% land surface area we are now at, albedo heating may drive our climate change no matter what we do with reducing CO2.

The combination of an increasing landmass absorption cycle that holds and releases heat instead of reflecting or transforming that energy, along with an ocean that is broken in it's ability to do it's job sequestering CO2, can trigger all the "feedback loop effects" AGW believers trumpet - methane release, deep ocean CO2 and methane release, etc.

All you seem to really want to do is to destroy the fossil fuel industry. Saving the world seems secondary. Or are you really proposing the destruction of human civilization as we know it? Because if you stop the immediate use of fossil fuels, you will bring that about.

I grew up in a relatively primitive setting. We cooked with wood. Used kerosene lighting. We rode horses and water buffalo. We grew most of our food and traded excess for the rest. I can happily go back to the days of my childhood. How about you? How about the billions that have never had a day of want such as Greta T? How about the billions that long for the day they have first world problems such as " does my cell phone use produce more CO2 emissions than the value of my posts on Ecomodder"?

You don't get to make such decisions. Not without a fight. Slam the worlds economies with your stranglehold techniques and "There will be a fight".

Yeah so I obviously favour an "all of the above" approach.

I'm a millennial, but I lived for a few years at my aunt's house in Canada where the central heating system is a wood stove. Water (for all uses) came from the gutters funneling into a cistern underground. There is a septic field out back. There is electricity and internet. There is no A/C for the summer.

This isn't a bad way to live. I'll admit, adapting to the cold was kinda unpleasant, but I did it and it was fine and I have no problems with it. We also avoided things there such as paper towels. There's a clothes line and a drying rack instead of a dryer. It was fine. Living there I had a lower carbon footprint than I do now back in the USA. There's a difference between that and living in developing world conditions, and it's more than tolerable. Modern American culture is incredibly wasteful. People roll their eyes at reusable shopping bags or paper straws, or using hand towels instead of paper napkins, or a vegetarian diet, but why should they? It's not that hard to give up these things.

In the USA, where I live, right now I will say it's hard to adhere to a vegetarian diet because meat is the most abundant source of protein. When I lived in Canada there was a month where I accidentally ended up going vegetarian because it was so much easier to avoid eating meat. But it's nearly impossible here. If you go to any kind of restaurant it's unlikely they will have plant-only options, or if they do it won't include protein. I don't really like impossible burgers, but soy sausage is great, I order that when I can at certain places that do have it. My life is not structured very well right now (I usually spend the night at 3 different places each week) so that makes it very hard for me to cook for myself. If I can get that sorted out then I'll be able to make a better effort towards a vegetarian diet again.

Ocean problems:
F*** yeah let's fix everything. Why do we need to wash tons of fertilizer down the Mississippi each year? It causes algae blooms and kills fish which obviously then hurts coastal fishermen and their ability to make a living. Different farming practices can reduce the need for fertilizer. We can also get by without growing so many crops for use as bio fuels. It's probably more carbon efficient to pursue vehicle electrification and general fuel economy gains. Unless of course your vehicle uses 100% biodiesel or something. But like ethanol in the gas... correct me if I'm wrong but that looks like a carbon inefficient process because now you gotta burn more fuel to do the farming of the corn that you're going to convert into ethanol, and you're taking up farmland for that purpose.

Urban sprawn, increased albedo, etc... let's fix that too! Buildings can be constructed with roofs that reflect more light back into space. This also helps you on your power bill in the summer. Sounds like a win-win to me. Put solar panels over top of parking spaces. USPS did that for their massive LA package facility. Why do all the big box stores have completely closed off roofs? You could have skylights up there to reduce the need for electric lighting during daylight hours. I did go to a grocery store with skylights in California once, why don't they do that everywhere? It's probably way cheaper to setup than solar panels would be if you want to complain about solar installation cost and complexity. Roads ought to be made from concrete like the US Interstate system. That would reflect more light back into space than asphalt. At the same time the concrete roads have to be redone wayyy less frequently. There are all kinds of great ideas going around. It's a shame more of them aren't adopted.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by Xist

He insulted members.....

The AGW deniers thought they could put up with one AGW advocate, even tho Natalya put them all under the table. But, two AGW advocates were too much. So the moderator let AGW deniers insult one AGW advocate, but reprimanded the insults by the AGW advocate, to get the AGW advocate to leave.
Its what AGW denier websites do, to bolster AGW denier members & let them think their AGW denial positions are viable. AGW deniers know they have only CEO fossil-fuel propaganda "sigh-ants", but they can spread it across the internet with impunity. Its very clear, but the AGW deniers pretend they don't know any such thing.
Its similar to "don'T rump" treets & illicit putin involvement in democratic processes.
Well, how about that.... here's another auto website that has a gathering of AGW deniers. No one saw that coming!

[litesong]

Originally Posted by Natalya

Modern American culture is incredibly wasteful.
Ocean problems:
Why do we need to wash tons of fertilizer down the Mississippi each year?...... kills fish....hurts coastal fishermen... Different farming practices can reduce the need for fertilizer. We can also get by without growing so many crops for use as bio fuels...... more carbon efficient to pursue vehicle electrification and general fuel economy gains..... ethanol in the gas... a carbon inefficient process because now you gotta burn more fuel to do the farming of the corn that you're going to convert into ethanol, and you're taking up farmland for that purpose.

Urban sprawn, increased albedo, etc... let's fix that too! Put solar panels over top of parking spaces. USPS did that for their massive LA package facility. Why do all the big box stores have completely closed off roofs?.... I did go to a grocery store with skylights in California once, why don't they do that everywhere? It's probably way cheaper to setup than solar panels..... Roads ought to be made from concrete like the US Interstate system. That would reflect more light back into space than asphalt. At the same time the concrete roads have to be redone wayyy less frequently.

Natalya is thinking well, starting with the ocean fertilizer dump "dead zones". Of course, Natalya is correct about the ethanol, used to dilute our nation's fuel stocks. 10% ethanol E10 loses 5% to 8% MPG than ethanol-free gasoline. Her reflectivity & longevity comparison between asphalt & concrete is good.

In contrast, AGW deniers are just AGW deniers.

[oil pan 4]

Anyone who questions anything or doesn't regurgitate the most insane dooms day global warming scenario that has absolutely no basis in science is a denier.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Anyone who questions anything or doesn't regurgitate the most insane dooms day global warming scenario that has absolutely no basis in science is a denier.

Standard AGW denier clap trap stated by an AGW denier.

[MetroMPG]

New rule! No more climate change discussion on EcoModder for one month.

You might call it a cooling-off period.

(I'm here all week. Try the veal.)

If it were my decision alone, I'd ban the topic outright. Unfortunately, there are two benevolent dictators around here, and we compromised.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[oil pan 4]

That sounds great to me.
Maybe the crazies will lose interest and not come back.