2011 Green Grand Prix: Fri., April 15 (Watkins Glen, NY)

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by geomartin

I had spoke with Bob Gillespie after your post. I don't understand how a car scale that has been certified for +/- 1Pound can give show a 0.21 Lb accuracy? Were you running the scale if so then we meet since I drove the car and saw it being weighed. I saw the weight of the car before annd after the event 1972Lbs (before event) and 1966Lbs (after event) sooooo the Lbs of fuel=6Lbs not 6.21Lbs

No, I didn't run or study the scales at WGI. I'm just one of the many attendees who appreciates the distinction between resolution and accuracy and enjoys Metrology.

My math is as follows:

90.65mi/106.6mpg = 0.850 gallons burned. Multiply by the density of your fuel to get the change in weight.
I was using the density of "any type of diesel fuel" in the WolframAlpha database to convert to lbs, but here it is with #2 Diesel instead:

density of diesel fuel * (90.65mi/106.6mi/gal) - Wolfram|Alpha

So, 6.03lbs, which is within a reasonable rounding error of 6lbs.

And yes, we did meet, because I think your car is interesting.

[geomartin]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

No, I didn't run or study the scales at WGI. I'm just one of the many attendees who appreciates the distinction between resolution and accuracy and enjoys Metrology.

My math is as follows:

90.65mi/106.6mpg = 0.850 gallons burned. Multiply by the density of your fuel to get the change in weight.
I was using the density of "any type of diesel fuel" in the WolframAlpha database to convert to lbs, but here it is with #2 Diesel instead:

density of diesel fuel * (90.65mi/106.6mi/gal) - Wolfram|Alpha

So, 6.03lbs, which is within a reasonable rounding error of 6lbs.

And yes, we did meet, because I think your car is interesting.

Cool beans. We have some photos of the event on flicker, here is the link.

Flickr: BITW Tech's Photostream

[brucepick]

To take a completely different approach - Is it possible to measure fuel electronically on these diesels?? Maybe not easy, but might be easier than building calibrated fuel cells.

If you can set up something that creates a ground when the injector is firing then an MPGuino can measure fuel flow. That is, as long as the fuel pressure is consistent as it is in modern gasoline vehicles. If you don't measure speed electronically the MPGuino won't care - it will just keep toting up fuel qty until you zero it. You'd have to get miles from an odometer or GPS but it's really a separate issue.

[notanarborist]

On diesels, fuel injection pressure is variable with load. Common rails may run at 4,000psi at idle but run 20,000-30,000psi at full load. Many boats have consumption meters that uses a flow sensor on supply and return lines. The difference gives you consumption. You would then need a computer that can accumulate that flow and divide by distance for automotive use.

[brucepick]

Well I went ahead and stuck my neck out.

I wrote up a good sized document with suggested rules for future GGP events and sent them to Bob Gillespie earlier this week. I think it's too long a document to paste into this thread, so here's a link to a page with the document.
https://sites.google.com/site/brucep...rix-april-2011

I nearly pasted a couple excerpts into this post. But I'd rather you see the whole document.

[RobertSmalls]

I stuck my neck out as well, and brought up the speedometer issue with Alfred State's Insight running temporary spares on the driven wheels. Bob looked it over, said that I came first in class, and that he'd mail me a wall plaque and update the score sheet once he got all the changes sorted out.

Yay, 1st place two years running! Though the event is attracting more and more serious entrants. We'll see how it goes in 2012.

[geomartin]

The rules look good to me for the straight fueled vehicles. The rules for the Hybrids and Electrics are vague. To keep everything fair all the energy should be counted, this would keep any of battery powered or assisted vehicles from an unfair advantage of not showing the energy used to recharge. In simpler terms some vehicles ran over half of the competition on batteries alone then used fuel for the remainder of the competition. What do you guys think?

[brucepick]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

...
Yay, 1st place two years running! Though the event is attracting more and more serious entrants. We'll see how it goes in 2012.

All RIGHT !!! Good going.

And - as far as I'm concerned, you and I were very serious entrants at GGP. Others may have had more decals but you can't argue with results.

I just wish that those EcoModders who had to work on Friday would have been able to compete at GGP.

[brucepick]

Originally Posted by geomartin

The rules look good to me for the straight fueled vehicles. The rules for the Hybrids and Electrics are vague. To keep everything fair all the energy should be counted, this would keep any of battery powered or assisted vehicles from an unfair advantage of not showing the energy used to recharge. In simpler terms some vehicles ran over half of the competition on batteries alone then used fuel for the remainder of the competition. What do you guys think?

Well - - -
The rules as I proposed would group EPA-rated gasoline hybrids along with EPA-rated conventional gasoline cars, as long as they don't have plug in capability. Their energy ultimately comes from the fuel in the tank, so you just measure mpg.

I proposed Class 7 for cars that are plug in capable. Details below. I didn't work out the scoring formula details but I do think I went a major step beyond what was done at the 2011 GGP. I didn't see anything about electric power consumption there, and the Volt ran away with the Class 5 award, which also included Gen 1 Insights. The Volt ran the shorter 17-lap run, and reportedly didn't need to run the engine until the last very few laps.

7) Plug-In Capable: Vehicles, EPA rated or not, with Plug-In capability. Includes both modified and not modified vehicles.
Cars in Plug-In class must provide measurement of fuel consumed as well as electrical consumption. Score will be based on both components. Scoring Formula for Plug In class to be determined and announced prior to the availability of the GGP registration form.

[geomartin]

OK, I agree with and it looks good. I would like to know if there is a good way of showing the battery consumptsion, a generator or a KWH meter of some sort.