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Old 01-22-2019, 09:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It may be “easier” to get higher MPG with a manual, but one is thoroughly out-of-sync with other traffic while so doing.

Other traffic will just have to fend for itself then.

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Old 01-22-2019, 03:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Offering a manual costs the manufacturer around 10 million in government testing.

Remove the testing and it costs absolutely nothing to offer an already designed manual from another market
1. The regulatory and testing costs aren't trivial. As you said they are millions and that cost is spread over a small number of vehicles

2. There are LOTS of other cost associated with adding a transmission


Logistics / Manufacturing / Sales
  • Shipping racks have to hold more than 1 transmission. This adds engineering complexity and cost
  • You need clutch shipping racks.
  • You need to spend engineering time to layout the station where the transmission is bolted to the engine
  • You need a new DC tool on a torque arm (and maybe a crane system to hold the tool)
  • You have to spend engineering hours to develop the assembly process and write work instructions
  • You have to spend engineering hours to update the programming stations
  • You have to spend engineering hours to update dynos
  • You have to fly engineers and technicians from every plant to corporate to be trained on how the parts are assembled
  • You have to train line operators on how the parts are assembled
  • You have to train someone at every dealership on how to service and repair the transmission
  • You have to stock the parts the distribution center and service parts in dealerships
  • You have to spend money to program the ordering system to add the option and decided on compatibility codes.

Engineering / Part costs:

This is the big one. I've been dealing with this for 6 months on a new vehicle that will go on sale in 2021. We are laying out the components on the firewall. We have new ECU's and associated wiring and have to find a place for them. No matter how we arrange the components we run into the space allocated for the manual clutch and reservoir. To solve this problem and bridge over the space for the clutch requires an extra bracket. This bracket adds material and labor cost to every automatic transmission model in order to allow for an option that sells at less than 5%.
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks for the detailed inside perspective, JSH.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Thanks for the detailed inside perspective, JSH.
Iím an insider as well and the costs he lists are mostly vested because the XMSN is already in use other places, acting as if all those costs arenít already sunk is misleading, also manual transmission information and Designs change much less often and in the case of GM body on frame at least
even will hook up the same across platform generations.

I am the guy responsible for much of the list he states and we definitely avoid updating documentation or tooling across the board because of a transmission , the designer would really have to f up to make that happen.

The current vehicle Iím on needs to be tin cupped meaning I have to re use the existing and spare tooling, no budget for most of his list.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Offering a manual costs the manufacturer around 10 million in government testing.

Remove the testing and it costs absolutely nothing to offer an already designed manual from another market

Which testing is that - EPA ratings cost that much?
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Which testing is that - EPA ratings cost that much?
Platform laws drive unnecessary crash tests, generally a different motor or transmission is treated the same as being a completely different vehicle
Or in the case of the Prime a solar panel on the roof is treated as a different car demanding new tests
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:55 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Iím an insider as well and the costs he lists are mostly vested because the XMSN is already in use other places, acting as if all those costs arenít already sunk is misleading, also manual transmission information and Designs change much less often and in the case of GM body on frame at least
even will hook up the same across platform generations.

I am the guy responsible for much of the list he states and we definitely avoid updating documentation or tooling across the board because of a transmission , the designer would really have to f up to make that happen.

The current vehicle Iím on needs to be tin cupped meaning I have to re use the existing and spare tooling, no budget for most of his list.
Let me guess design guy right?

I'm the manufacturing engineer responsible for most of what is on that list and those are real costs and costs that are incurred at every plant that builds the vehicle. Every plant is unique.

Of course the only tooling I mentioned was the DC tool and those are pretty cheap (about $100K). The rest is hours / travel.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
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And I'm the bean counter who says we wont make near as much bank never fixing inexpensive manual transmissions while we make make millions fixing $6000 out of warranty 8 year old 6-10 speed and CVT automatics.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:39 AM   #19 (permalink)
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It's still possible to get a full-size with a manual south of the border...
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
Other traffic will just have to fend for itself then.
I never worry about it. But the average driver does.

Thereís a point in the acceleration curve where the boost really comes on. In 5th (Direct) I can usually blow past those trying to get ahead of me from another lane to enter a highway if I so choose. Can be fun to disappoint them.

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