2022 Toyota Tundra Hybrid

[redpoint5]

Toyota has a good deal of lithium ion experience too. They've been using them since the 2012 Prius plug-in, a certain trim of the gen IV Prius, and the RAV4 and Prius Prime.

[Autobahnschleicher]

Originally Posted by alexshock

Nimh is more friendly to extreme temperature conditions, both hot and cold. This makes this truck usable outside of California

Well, if you have any kind of decent thermal management, that's not an issue.
However NiMh batteries also don't like getting exposed to high temperatures for prolonged periods of time either.

[Vwbeamer]

I just know with battery powered hand tools Lithium batties last longer than NiMH. in both run time and number of cycles.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Autobahnschleicher

Well, if you have any kind of decent thermal management, that's not an issue.
However NiMh batteries also don't like getting exposed to high temperatures for prolonged periods of time either.

True. But NiMH still seem more robust and need less thermal management and less battery balancing than Li ion. NiMH works well below zero (Fahrenheit) without any need for a battery heater. And battery management doesn't even need a lead to every cell. In fact NiMH systems don't even have active balancing. The cells just balance themselves due to higher charge levels causing higher self-discharge rates.

Optimal? No, but simpler and more robust.

[Autobahnschleicher]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

True. But NiMH still seem more robust and need less thermal management and less battery balancing than Li ion. NiMH works well below zero (Fahrenheit) without any need for a battery heater. And battery management doesn't even need a lead to every cell. In fact NiMH systems don't even have active balancing. The cells just balance themselves due to higher charge levels causing higher self-discharge rates.

Optimal? No, but simpler and more robust.

If you go as far as including a hybrid system, you might want it to work effciently so it actualy decreases fuel consumption properly.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Autobahnschleicher

If you go as far as including a hybrid system, you might want it to work efficiently so it actually decreases fuel consumption properly.

The typical US full size pickup buyer isn't concerned about fuel economy. This hybrid system is more about boosting performance than fuel economy. It is mated to a twin turbo V6 after all. I expect similar fuel economy to the F-150 hybrid which is rated at 25 mpg combined.

That is more than enough to hit 2026 fuel economy regulations for full size trucks (23 mpg) and give some offset credits for the conventional gas models.

Isaac is right on target with post #14. Ni-MH is about cost. Toyota is a master at hitting targets in the most cost effective manner. There is the reason they have been the most profitable automaker for years.

[redpoint5]

In the Chevy Bolt forum, people often spoke of how tragically behind Toyota is with regards to developing EVs. They predict the collapse of the company due to their lack of EV competence, and a skyrocketing of EV sales due any second now.

Meanwhile I'm countering that opinion by saying everyone else was too early, and that we can get excited for the growth of EVs when Toyota enters that market.

Then Chevy's EVs continued spontaneously bursting into flames prompting a 2 billion dollar recall...

Us armchair quarterbacks are fools compared to those actually developing strategies for their respective companies.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

In the Chevy Bolt forum, people often spoke of how tragically behind Toyota is with regards to developing EVs. They predict the collapse of the company due to their lack of EV competence, and a skyrocketing of EV sales due any second now.

Meanwhile I'm countering that opinion by saying everyone else was too early, and that we can get excited for the growth of EVs when Toyota enters that market.

I agree with you and Toyota (and Honda). Both Honda and Toyota can hit their fuel economy targets today without EVs. They don't have to sell EVs at small margins or a loss to avoid huge fines. That gives them the luxury of waiting for battery technology to improve and continue to decrease in price. They are both planning a big push mid-decade when battery prices are projected to be at the point were they can make a good margin on an EV. Meanwhile they continue to develop EV technology with hybrids.

Likewise the current EV market is pretty tiny so they really aren't behind. When we are past the early adopter phase and general car buyers are looking for EVs they will have EVs to sell.

They also make a very logical argument that if reduced CO2 is the goal we will see much great reduction putting almost everyone in a hybrid with much reduced CO2 emissions than a small fraction of the population EVs and everyone else just continuing to buy gas cars.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Then Chevy's EVs continued spontaneously bursting into flames prompting a 2 billion dollar recall...

Which will cost LG a lot of money but I doubt it will hurt GM much in the long run. It seems the fires are a result of sloppy manufacturing not the underlying battery tech.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Us armchair quarterbacks are fools compared to those actually developing strategies for their respective companies.

Very true. Enthusiasts want manufacturers to make what they want - not what is profitable for the company to make and not in many causes what the general public wants. You can see this with manual transmissions and EVs.

Car enthusiasts love manuals and can't see why manufacturers continue to drop them. They don't know (or don't care) that adding the option of a manual increases costs on every car sold so it makes no financial sense to keep offering manuals when the general public doesn't buy them. (Manuals have dropped to less than 2% market share in the USA)

Likewise EV enthusiasts can't understand why manufacturers aren't making a bunch of EVs. They don't care that profit margins are lower on an EV than a gas car. They also can't understand why general car buyers aren't falling over themselves to buy an EV. They don't get that most car buyers just want reliable transportation at reasonable cost. Gas cars work for that so few buyers see a reason to spend more money (at least up front) to buy an EV.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

Meanwhile they continue to develop EV technology with hybrids.

They also make a very logical argument that if reduced CO2 is the goal we will see much great reduction putting almost everyone in a hybrid with much reduced CO2 emissions than a small fraction of the population EVs and everyone else just continuing to buy gas cars.

It seems the fires are a result of sloppy manufacturing not the underlying battery tech.

EV enthusiasts can't understand why manufacturers aren't making a bunch of EVs. They don't care that profit margins are lower on an EV than a gas car.

Engineering a hybrid is way more difficult than engineering a pure EV, so Toyota's competency to make EVs will already be established when the time is right.

Regarding CO2 reduction, I'm constantly saying there is more bang for the buck making hybrids and PHEVs given current technology and manufacturing capacity. Nobody wants to hear it. They argue everyone is better off in a Bolt than a Prius Prime, for example. I posted this on the Bolt forum in response to "If I want lower EV efficiency and inconvenience of a PHEV lugging around an engine and gasoline, I guess I can carry 4 spare tires and some bricks in my Bolt..."

Efficiency
Frontal area- Prius Prime 23.9^2 - Bolt is 25.8^2
Coefficent of drag- Prius Prime .25 - Bolt 0.31
MPGe- Prius Prime 133 - Bolt 118
winner is Prius Prime in every category

In 2019 the Prius Prime sold 23,500 and the Bolt sold 16,500. Based on sales figures, it's possible more cumulative EV miles are driven by Prime owners than Bolt owners, and all that from a battery 1/4 the size of the Bolts.

The purity of the green religion means they are constantly letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I've been saying here for years now that hybrid and plug-ins are going to be important transitional technologies. This all or nothing mindset is getting in the way of real progress.

Oh, and the Prius Prime is 200 lbs lighter weight.

Regarding the Bolt fires, many people used to be critical of Tesla's use of cylindrical cells because it wastes more materials in packaging and wastes volume due to void space between cells. They argued prismatic and pouch were more efficient and pointed to the fact that most EV manufacturers have adopted these formats. In hindsight, it may have been a wise engineering decision in that it reduces the chance of a single cell defect causing a fire.

I've argued that perhaps a design that requires cells to be defect free might not be safe enough. A single cell having an internal short shouldn't cause ones house to burn down. Perhaps I'm wrong though and cells can be made reliably enough that the risk is low, or it would simply be too many compromises to make an inherently safe battery.

EV enthusiasts are myopic in every way. They don't consider that auto manufacturers need to make a profit, and EVs aren't profitable. They don't consider that many people don't have convenient access to charging. They don't consider that most vehicle buyers don't want to research their stopping points prior to going on a trip. Most people don't want to spend 40 minutes "filling" their vehicle. Most aren't satisfied with the frequency of broken chargers compared with the reliability of gas station pumps.

[Hersbird]

The hybrid in the Tundra seems pretty mild. More than the Etorque in the Ram but less than what the F150 Hybrid has. I hope they use some kind of reverse power like the F150 has, that built in generator ability is a pretty useful feature on a truck. Otherwise the big news here is Toyota going turbo v6 like Ford and losing the great 5.7 v8 which is a powerful reliable motor.

I hardly ever shop Toyota, I did check out their new Sienna hybrid before getting the Pacifica hybrid. Now might be a good time to "pick up" a v8 Toyota if you want one as they are probably gone. I look back always on the great motors and think how I should have bought a 4.0 Jeep Cherokee the last year they were made.
I just don't think any turbo gas motor is going to go down in history as a pillar of long term reliability.