Are 4 wheel drive passenger vehicles wasting precious resources?

[RH77]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

I don't know about you guys. but I definitely only see small cars and rwd trucks/suv's in ditches around here.

Story hour

I see mostly RWD trucks and older FWD cars (likely with bad tires) in the ditches. Even 4x4's.

I've lived in every part of the demographic: City, Urban, Suburban, Farm and in-between each. One Winter I slid off the road with 2 vehicles in one day: an RWD, E-350 Ambulance in a driveway (thankfully a non-emergency call -- a tractor had to pull us out); and a Civic on the way home (in rural Ohio after nearly 2-feet of snow). Some good ol' boys in a lifted 4-by pulled me out after an ice-capade. Then the folks pulled me up a hill with the farm truck the same night with the Chevy K2500. The Civic saw better days at that point with a rip in the muffler and tires worn-down from getting stuck on untreated hills. I had to get to work and back. Nature of the job at the time.

The point is Urban/Suburban SUVs (oddly, one of those terms is the name of the biggest poseur) are clogging-up cities. There are places that true 4x4 use is required, but sales are WAY over and above that figure.

RH77

[Duffman]

DiferentPointofView
I'd recommend some studded winter tires for you and a limited slip diff if you don’t have one already.

[DifferentPointofView]

I'd recommend some studded winter tires for you and a limited slip diff if you don’t have one already.

Yea, I really need to get some cheap rims from a Jeep someone is parting out and throw some winter tires on them for the winter. As for the limited slip diff, I'd also get one, but the budget just isn't in the making right now. If I can't get the rims, my tires are about 75% worn right now, so I'll probably get some A/T next time around. The ones on there now I didn't buy, they were on there when I bought it.

[zjrog]

DPV, you made some good points. I know most of you don't live in the sticks either. Living where the roads are taken care of in inclement weather makes 4x4 irrelavent.

I'm glad I have 4x4. In fact I am lucky that I can chose between fulltime and parttime 4x4. This winter has been a good one, 4x4 came in handy plenty of times since I do drive a mountain pass to work. We even had a day when the Highway Patrol in their 4x4s were stuck closing the road. That morning with over 2 feet of fresh new snow, I couldn't budge the Neon with the snow over the headlights. My Jeep motored right on through even pushing snow around. Later in the morning, I did get a little stuck, but I was playing in the snow. In the pass, over the winter, FWD and RWD cars are often in the ditches. A few SUVs with AWD, but very very few true 4x4 vehicles. I have pulled out some of each, but just one 4x4 where the driver didn't know what he was doing. Honestly, having been through a couple performance driving schools, I feel I have a decent understanding of vehicle dynamics. The average driver does not, nor do they care. A large number of drivers don't even THINK effectively while driving.

This is only my second winter in almost 30 years, living in New Mexico, Florida, Southern California, and Hawaii we didn't have much winter. Though I did drive a FWD across country one wintery storm with freezing rain. Most of the vehicles that were in the ditches were cars that went past me too fast. But since that was 94 when I did that, the SUV craze wasn't in full swing yet.

And yes, my friends and I have gone on trails in the snow. One trail is easy in 2WD when things are dry. We took turns pulling each other out though in the snow.

[DifferentPointofView]

Oh, don't you love story hour one thing I like about the ZJ is the front end acts like a plow, it pushes the snow underneath the front at a good height, then the cat converter melts it

I feel I have a decent understanding of vehicle dynamics. The average driver does not, nor do they care. A large number of drivers don't even THINK effectively while driving.

Very true, the best way I think is just to practice driving in the conditions on a stranded road with someone to help pull you out when you screw up to get a feel of "oh, so that's what happens if you give it too much gas" or "slow down the hands, steer a tad slower next time." It's a lot better than reading how a car will handle, cause every vehicle handles differently, even the same make and model, depending on the weight that is has in it. (mine has more weight in the rear than a regular ZJ).

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

Yea, I really need to get some cheap rims from a Jeep someone is parting out and throw some winter tires on them for the winter. As for the limited slip diff, I'd also get one, but the budget just isn't in the making right now. If I can't get the rims, my tires are about 75% worn right now, so I'll probably get some A/T next time around. The ones on there now I didn't buy, they were on there when I bought it.

The fact that you are getting by with a peg leg and marginal tires with a monster hill to climb every day doesnt support your case of needing 4x4. Trust me, studded tires a putting power to 2 wheels is all you will ever need.

[trebuchet03]

Hrmm, just thinking....

Exactly How much fuel does it waste? Sure, driveline losses can be calculated - but has anyone ever done a fuel useage study?

For example, how does it compare to fuel wasted to congestion? Here's that data for 2005 for selected cities - the numbers are in millions of gallons

City 2005
Akron, OH 2.3
Albany-Schenectady, NY 2.8
Albuquerque, NM 6.6
Allentown-Bethlehem, PA-NJ 4.7
Anchorage, AK 0.8
Atlanta, GA 96.1
Austin, TX 15.5
Bakersfield, CA 2.1
Baltimore, MD 40.8
Beaumont, TX 0.8
Birmingham, AL 8.2
Boston, MA-NH-RI 62.5
Boulder, CO 0.6
Bridgeport-Stamford, CT-NY 11.5
Brownsville, TX 0.4
Buffalo, NY 3.7
Cape Coral, FL 3.1
Charleston-North Charleston, SC 4.9
Charlotte, NC-SC 14.3
Chicago, IL-IN 141.6
Cincinnati, OH-KY-IN 17.4
Cleveland, OH 8.8
Colorado Springs, CO 4.4
Columbia, SC 2.4
Columbus, OH 15.5
Corpus Christi, TX 1.1
Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 106.2
Dayton, OH 4.6
Denver-Aurora, CO 42.5
Detroit, MI 76.1
El Paso, TX-NM 5.7
Eugene, OR 1.1
Fresno, CA 4.2
Grand Rapids, MI 4.4
Hartford, CT 6.5
Honolulu, HI 6.3
Houston, TX 92.6
Indianapolis, IN 16.1
Jacksonville, FL 14.0
Kansas City, MO-KS 8.6
Laredo, TX 0.7
Las Vegas, NV 20.0
Little Rock, AR 2.3
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 383.7
Louisville, KY-IN 14.4
Memphis, TN-MS-AR 9.2
Miami, FL 105.2
Milwaukee, WI 10.8
Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 41.8
Nashville-Davidson, TN 13.5
New Haven, CT 4.2
New Orleans, LA 6.9
New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT 242.0
Oklahoma City, OK 6.2
Omaha, NE-IA 5.3
Orlando, FL 26.0
Oxnard-Ventura, CA 8.4
Pensacola, FL-AL 2.7
Philadelphia, PA-NJ-DE-MD 70.9
Phoenix, AZ 58.9
Pittsburgh, PA 9.2
Portland, OR-WA 24.0
Providence, RI-MA 11.7
Raleigh-Durham, NC 11.7
Richmond, VA 6.4
Riverside-San Bernardino, CA 39.6
Rochester, NY 2.4
Sacramento, CA 29.2
Salem, OR 1.0
Salt Lake City, UT 9.3
San Antonio, TX 20.4
San Diego, CA 71.1
San Francisco-Oakland, CA 100.5
San Jose, CA 34.7
Sarasota-Bradenton, FL 5.3
Seattle, WA 54.7
Spokane, WA 0.9
Springfield, MA-CT 2.5
St. Louis, MO-IL 23.3
Tampa-St Petersburg, FL 35.3
Toledo, OH-MI 2.6
Tucson, AZ 10.5
Tulsa, OK 4.8
Virginia Beach, VA 17.1
Washington, DC-MD-VA 90.9
437-Area Average 6.6
85-Area Average 29.6
Very Large Area Average 120.1
Large Area Average 23.4
Medium Area Average 7.3
Small Area Average 1.8


EDIT: Sorry, that was confusing - I removed the 2004 data so it would be easier to read.

[RH77]

I'll tell ya, at the Rally Race this year, the 'Grand' came in very handy as a Medical/Utility vehicle on icy/snowy courses. I nearly got stuck in a soggy ditch, but even the AWD version pulled right out (a TJ wasn't as lucky)

The stage I worked started on an icy hill. Luckily the participants made it, but the workers with Camry's, Civics, Neons, etc. got 1/2-way up and needed a tug. Again, the rare exception to needing 4-wheel drive. Rented and returned...

I agree -- this aligns with my philosophy that teenagers should "lose control" on a safe autocross course and/or snowy parking lot to gain the experience of what it's like when you loose complete control of a vehicle. That feeling, the response, and the result. Hopefully the experience sticks.

RH77

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

Oh, don't you love story hour one thing I like about the ZJ is the front end acts like a plow, it pushes the snow underneath the front at a good height, then the cat converter melts it



Very true, the best way I think is just to practice driving in the conditions on a stranded road with someone to help pull you out when you screw up to get a feel of "oh, so that's what happens if you give it too much gas" or "slow down the hands, steer a tad slower next time." It's a lot better than reading how a car will handle, cause every vehicle handles differently, even the same make and model, depending on the weight that is has in it. (mine has more weight in the rear than a regular ZJ).

[DifferentPointofView]

The fact that you are getting by with a peg leg and marginal tires with a monster hill to climb every day doesnt support your case of needing 4x4. Trust me, studded tires a putting power to 2 wheels is all you will ever need.

This year was my first year with my Jeep. which equals the first winter in my Jeep as well. Which brings me to another story.

I just barely got by... barely. I've almost gotten to the point of totaling the Jeep twice this winter. one in that 6 foot deep ditch, another when I did a complete 540 going downhill just after a snow/ice storm.

The 6 foot deep ditch encounter was so close to flipping the jeep onto it's roof that I thought I was gonna wet myself. Had I been driving at Idle speed, I don't know what would have happened. the snow wasn't even really snow, it was hail built up about half an inch to look like snow, so it was basically ice. You should have heard the news on how many wrecks were on the news that day.

The other one... going downhill, and the auto tranny shifts... the change in driveline speed and engine speed caused the jeep to spin out of control, all I remember is seeing glimpses of the road, and ending up in some guys yard, almost hitting a pole...

yeap... I need new tires... will I be getting some soon? nope, probably not. it's summer now shows how cheap I am. I'll definitely get some new tires near next winter... hopefully.

[zjrog]

When slick, I slip the transfer case to the AWD setting. I also seriously change my mindset while driving. Number one, I don't wish to damage my own vehicle. Number two, I usually have passengers...

In the mountains, I turn off the OD. I shift to a lower gear before I start down a hill when I know it is slippery. That way I am not surprised if the trans shifts.

Now in the deeper snow, I shift to 4x4 and leave it.

I drive on all terrains year round.