ABG: Top Gear -- BMW M3 vs. Toyota Prius fuel economy race track competition (video)

[instarx]

Algae-based biodiesel is here? That's a surprise to me and I'm pretty tuned into the biodiesel community, since I only use B100 in my diesel truck. Show me some. Or even show me a link to a production site that's anything other than a lab experiment or proof of concept. I can probably make biodiesel out of my cat's poop, but that doesn't mean it's here as a fuel.

I'm sorry to be so contrary, but a lot of the things you say about diesel and biodiesel is subtly incorrect. It isn't that manufacturers won't warranty an engine running more than B5, its that they will only approve fuel for use in their vehicles that is below B5. That's not quite the same thing. Because their diesel vehicles are certified to meet air pollution limits using #2 diesel, not biodiesel, they cannot say it's ok to use high concentrations of biodiesel even when their engines may run fine on it. If they did that they would get into huge trouble with the EPA for approving a fuel that might put their fleet out of compliance. However, if the owner decides to use ASTM-certified B100 the manufacturer cannot deny his warranty because he did.

There is also the problem that some jokers will call anything biodiesel even though real biodiesel is only created through the esterfication of biological fats or oils. I'm sure the manufacturers don't want to open up the rat's nest of a bunch of poor slobs putting god knows what into their tanks and destroying their $25,000 engines because someone told them it was biodiesel. Diesel engines are so robust they will handle 5% of almost anything except gasoline and water (and maybe even gasoline). They might very well deny warranties in that case, and rightly so.

[fshagan]

Originally Posted by instarx

Algae-based biodiesel is here? That's a surprise to me and I'm pretty tuned into the biodiesel community, since I only use B100 in my diesel truck. Show me some. Or even show me a link to a production site that's anything other than a lab experiment or proof of concept. I can probably make biodiesel out of my cat's poop, but that doesn't mean it's here as a fuel.

Looks like you're right ... the ones in Spain have been issuing press releases since 2006, with production start dates in 2007, and here we are half way through 2008 with none up and running. The ones in Hawai'i are test projects, and not actually producing, I guess. There's more hype in the alternate energy field than in Brother Sam's Travelin' Snake Oil Medicine Show; we should start drilling for real live oil now!

Originally Posted by instarx

I'm sorry to be so contrary, but a lot of the things you say about diesel and biodiesel is subtly incorrect. It isn't that manufacturers won't warranty an engine running more than B5, its that they will only approve fuel for use in their vehicles that is below B5.

It is a subtle difference, I guess. Would you agree with this statement: If there's a problem with your engine, the auto company will point to your use of non-approved fuel as a possible cause of the problem, and your normal fight to get them to cover a warranty issue will be compounded by more than their normal intransigence.

That difference is subtle, yet the effect is the same. I'm not going to risk thousands of dollars in repair bills on something the automaker doesn't approve.

[fshagan]

RE: Clean diesels available from BMW in CA:

Originally Posted by fshagan

I'm not sure this is true ... the last information I saw was dated a few days ago (July 1) and said that they would be leasing them "soon", or that customers could order one "now". They have missed the intro date several times because they have trouble passing the California standards, and I suspect this is another case of that, where the press release is premature.

From the August 18 edition of the LA TIMES:

Volkswagen begins delivery today of its 50-state legal Jetta TDI, the first "clean diesel" vehicle to be sold in the U.S. (Yes, that means here in California too!) It's presumptively the first of a flood of European-made diesels to hit every one of our states, including some exciting numbers by Mercedes-Benz.

It has finally happened. It gets 33 mpg combined with the new EPA ratings, quite a bit more than the 24 mpg combined that the gas version achieves. The article notes that with diesel running about 13% higher in cost than gasoline, and the $2,500 adder to get the diesel engine, the higher mileage may not be the most economical choice (a poster at the article notes there may be a tax credit of $1,300 for buying the new Jetta).

The Prius earns a 46 mpg combined rating. There may be a price difference; the base price of the Jetta is $21,990 according to the article. The Prius "Package 1" runs about $21,500 here in California according to Edmunds.com. The real consideration for owners will be what they get for that comparable price; I found the Package 3 to be my sweet spot with the Prius, and paid $24,040.

Please note that the preceding post does not criticize diesel, Europeans or otherwise intentionally tweak sensitive individuals.

[SixSpeed]

I think this whole segment illustrates a valuable point. A hybrid, no matter how you stack it up, only serves a purpose when you use it for short trips in City. The E92 M3 is by no means an eco friendly vehicle, however the materials used to produce it are less toxic to the environment once the vehicle has expended it's use, and the highway use winner falls solely on Hydrogen, CNG and Diesel, and as Hydrogen isn't a viable fuel yet, and CNG is a hastle, Diesel is currently the most "Green" fuel to use for those of us that commute 20+ miles a day. Let's face it , the Prius is a phenominal vehicle on city streets, as well as it's counterparts from other companies, but if their's one group of people I can't stand, it's the want-to-be-hippies driving their Prius, with the A/C on, cruising down the freeway at 65+ mph with a "save the planet" bumper sticker on it as they haul their 68kg battery pack made from some of the least eco friendly materials on earth.

I know I'm going to get some of you yelling blasphemy because I'm thinking this through, but before you go insulting my observation, look up the facts, and you'll see I'm right on point, and If I'm missing something somewhere, try and keep it to a college level conversation.

[fshagan]

There's a lot of misinformation about hybrids out there.

I drive 65 to 75 in my Prius on my daily commute up the 101 freeway, with 35 miles freeway driving and less than 10 miles city driving, and average 50.1 MPG (that's over 10 tankfuls). The NiMH batteries in my Prius are fully recyclable, and present less of an environmental hazard than the small lead acid battery that is used to start it. They are warrantied for 150,000 miles or 8 years in California.

And the Prius handily beats the VW in MPG, even with a lower BTU content fuel.

The "clean diesels" have their own maintenance issues, with many of them requiring chemical canisters (urea?) with periodic replacement required (at every oil change, according to BMW). I haven't found out how VW is dealing with the extra NOx emissions to make the Jetta TDI a 50-state diesel.

[99LeCouch]

BMW's recommended oil changes are also in the 15-20k range, and need specific oils meeting their specs. So every oil change for a 2009 BMW is a lot of miles!

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by SixSpeed

. . . If I'm missing something somewhere, try and keep it to a college level conversation.

Ok:

This data is from the earlier 2001-03 Prius, the vehicle I drive. So I typically cruise at 65 mph and get 52 MPG all day long. I can push it up to 70 mph and get 49 MPG.

The more recent Prius, 2004-2009, gets even better high speed performance:

These are stock, off-the-shelf, prius, a good place to start.

So let's see how the EPA, Fuel Economy, rates the best diesel against the best hybrid:

Jetta TDI - 6.2 tons of CO[2] per year, 11.6 barrels of petroleum, pollution score: 6 (lower ranking)
Prius - 4.0 tons of CO[2] per year, 7.4 barrels, pollution score: 9.5 (best)

Apparently the EPA engineers and scientists continue to find the Prius uses less petroleum and has far better emissions than a diesel. That doesn't mean each can't be improved, one of the reasons folks come here.

Nickel is used to make stainless steel, used for our pots and pans as well as our knives, forks and spoons. Yet apparently some hybrid skeptics claim nickel is terribly, horribly toxic:

I've been in a Prius traction battery and find it a fascinating part.

Understand that I enjoy people who make false claims about the Prius and follow it up by exposing their angst and blind, mindless disapproval of the hybrid owners, ". . . one group of people I can't stand, it's the want-to-be-hippies driving their Prius . . ."

As my college professor once said, "Ignorance can be cured but stupid is forever."

So maybe, just maybe, can we keep our personal opinions to ourselves and NOT trot them out to be answered in kind?

Bob Wilson

[fshagan]

Originally Posted by 99LeCouch

BMW's recommended oil changes are also in the 15-20k range, and need specific oils meeting their specs. So every oil change for a 2009 BMW is a lot of miles!

I don't know if they still do it, but BMW used to have free routine maintenance for their cars (obviously built into the price of the car, but it was a nice feature). Replacing the NOx stuff has to add some expense, but I have no idea how much that will run. According to some press reports in 2008, BMW was going to pick up the cost of replacing the urea solution during regular maintenance.

[SixSpeed]

bwilson4web, I commnd your well informed response, however you are still missing the point. It was made to sound as if Jeremy C. was only slightly getting the point when he said it's not what you drive but how you drive it, but that's the point all together. any one of my fellow 101 commuters here N. of SF have probably seen the lime Green Gen 2 Prius that weaves in/out of traffic, going full bore. He's a weekly nuisence @ ~4pm-5pm. But for someone like that to say they purchased a Prius to Save the environment is blasphemy at best. I purchased a used honda Accord, and drive it modestly and achieve ~35-40 mpg depending, and although not as magnificent as the Prius, the fact remains that keeping my Used honda on the road and well maintained, means that my carbon footprint is smaller than your Prius... for now. You had to have your Prius built, meaning one more car on the road, mine was pre-existing and gets respectable numbers, and is wel maintained to continue that trend.

I understand bwilson4web that you took my comments as offensive, but you clipped out the important part of my statement, that was if you buy a Prius and drive it as if no matter WHAT you do, you are doing well for the environment, and I can't stand people that call themselves earth friendly, and drive their "Earth frindly" cars as if they can do no harm, Clarkson proved you can take a Prius and turn it into a polluting monster if you don't drive it as intended, I would take offence to the KKK rference if it weren't obvious it was a rebuttle of passion, and it was the only obsurd response in your post.

I like the Prius and I hope they continue to populate our roads, I just hope that they find the right owner, because "It's not what you drive, It's how you drive it"

[SixSpeed]

Sorry, P.S. why not strap a Diesel to the Prius? the increased torque at low RPM could recharge the battery faster and more efficient?